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post #1 of 24 Old 05-10-2015, 10:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Does ANYBODY make a dedicated VHF-Hi antenna?

Winegard and Antennacraft have both discontinued their 5 & 10 element VHF-Hi yagi antennas. I was planning on using a combo 10 element and Solid Signal HBU 91 on a few installs I have lined up (due to gain, cost and compactness compared to a full combo).

To my knowledge, nobody else makes a 10 element yagi save for an MATV companies (who are certainly outside of the price range). Any suggestions?

Thanks!
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post #2 of 24 Old 05-10-2015, 10:50 PM
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If you can do a DIY project you can build my 12 element LPDA described in my link below. I built it to replace the commercial ones because I needed higher front to back ratio.
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post #3 of 24 Old 05-10-2015, 11:31 PM
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Antennas-Direct still makes the C5, which provides 7.0 to 7.6 dBi Raw Gain in Hi-VHF Band:
https://antennasdirect.com/cmss_...with%20uhf.pdf
https://antennasdirect.com/store...V-antenna.html

RCA ANT-751 provides about 1 dB lower Raw Gain in Hi-VHF Band.

For even higher Hi-VHF Band Gain, you could use Antennacraft HBU-44 or HBU-55 and use a UHF/VHF Coupler if you prefer to ALSO use a separate, Higher Gain UHF Antenna:
http://antennacraft.net/Antennas/AntennasHBU.html

Same approach can be used with Winegard Combo Antennas....
==============================================
Hi-VHF Hourglass-Loop with 15 Reflector Rods is a simple DIY Project that provides as much Gain as the W-G YA17-13:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loop...fhourglassloop

And of course, I have posted some OPTIMIZED DIY Hi-VHF Yagi designs with even higher Raw Gain on the UPPER Channels, which tend to be simpler to build with only ONE Boom:
22-El FD-Yagi, Boom-Length = 217-in (18-ft), Raw Gain = 12.5 to 15.2 to 13.9 dBi:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/yagi...f22elfdyagiopt
12-El FD-Yagi, 107-in, Raw Gain = 10.0 to 13.1 dBi, or 10.0 to 14.0 dBi if 138-in:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/yagi...f12elfdyagiopt

===============================================
BTW: I just uploaded a Parametric (Sigma-Tau) Study of the DIY Twin-Boom (Layered) LPDA for the UHF Band, illustrating that a 13 or 15-Element Pair LPDA was about as big as is reasonable to build....with only minor Gain increase as more Element Pairs are added. The Spread Sheet contains ALL of the Build Dimensions for each and every data point you see in the various Graphs. To RESCALE for Hi-VHF Band, make ALL Dimensions (including Element Radius) THREE TIMES BIGGER:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/zigz...dawedgelayered

In an LPDA, "Sigma" defines how close the two largest Elements are Separated and "Tau" defines the Ratio of Adjacent Element Spacings and Lengths as they shrink toward the shorter Feedpoint Elements, with the Longest Length starting at about 1/2-wavelength for the lowest Frequency in the Band, as described here:
http://salsburg.com/Log-Periodic.pdf



For various 7-Element Pair LPDA designs, I plotted the Max Raw Gain attainable for various CHOICES of the LPDA design parameter "Sigma" [Optimum was about 0.165), using nikiml's Optimization Scripts to find the "best" value for "Tau" and Boom-Separation, finding the "Sweet Spot" for a 7-Element Pair LPDA design. Note that the Boom-Length is a LINEAR function of "Sigma". I next plan to do a similar Parametric Study for a 13-Element Pair LPDA and will eventually get around to doing a "FLAT" Element LPDA Study so we don't have to "guess" an "equivalent" Radius for a Round Element.




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post #4 of 24 Old 05-11-2015, 04:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks guys. I'm interested in straight out-of-the-box solutions, not something I'm going to have to take the time to DIY. I'm trying to make a business out of this, not tinkering around myself. Otherwise I certainly would be building my own stuff. It's just kind of a shame when no company wants to make a full line of antenna products. There are plenty of applications for VHF-Hi antennas, some markets with VHF-Lo stations that would be best served by Lo yagis. Winegard even discontinued their FM traps. It's not like FM interference and 2nd harmonic distortion of preamps just magically went away with the advent of DTV.
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post #5 of 24 Old 05-11-2015, 04:52 AM
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Wondering if Winegard will bring back a dedicated VHF-Hi since Antennacraft is gone? Seems like there would be enough sales to make a profit if the product is priced right. VHF-Hi is not going away as long as so many are ADDICTED to their smart phones.
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post #6 of 24 Old 05-11-2015, 05:07 AM
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Unless you can till find some Antennacraft units in stock somewhere (try Summit Source), the Antennas Direct ClearStream 5 is the only game for an out of the box 7-13 antenna.

Otherwise, you're left with using a combo antenna.
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post #7 of 24 Old 05-11-2015, 05:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattdp View Post
I was planning on using a combo 10 element and Solid Signal HBU 91 on a few installs I have lined up (due to gain, cost and compactness...
How difficult would it be to remove the UHF section from a combo if compactness is important? Are there any combos that would make this mod easy?

In order to keep the same feed point, you could remove the UHF corner reflector and most of the UHF directors. You might need to move the bracket on the boom that attaches to the mast, because the center of gravity shift.

If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
Lord Kelvin, 1883
megalithia.com/elect/aerialsite/dttpoorman.html

Last edited by rabbit73; 05-11-2015 at 06:50 AM.
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post #8 of 24 Old 05-11-2015, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ProjectSHO89 View Post
Unless you can till find some Antennacraft units in stock somewhere (try Summit Source), the Antennas Direct ClearStream 5 is the only game for an out of the box 7-13 antenna.

Otherwise, you're left with using a combo antenna.
Still available on Ebay:

http://ebay.com/itm/AntennaCraft...item3f33aed703
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post #9 of 24 Old 05-11-2015, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

Yes. If you'll notice that is Summit Source's ebay store. Get 'em while they last!
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post #10 of 24 Old 05-11-2015, 10:49 AM
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I've never seen any models for the HBU-xx series of Antennas and no one has taken the TIME to post some measurements....so we don't know for SURE what happens when the UHF Corner Reflector Elements are hacked off...but FWIW, it made NO difference when I ran Ken Nist's model for the R-S VU-90 with and without it's Corner Reflector (he didn't bother to include UHF Elements). And feel free to hack off the small UHF Elements to make it a bit smaller.
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post #11 of 24 Old 05-11-2015, 11:01 AM
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Wade Antennas once advertised the Taco/Wade J-105-HI Antenna as being "economically priced"....has anyone actually CALLED them to get a Price???
http://wadeantenna.com/ius/resources/JSeries.pdf
http://wadeantenna.com/ius/produ...0LOG_N0515.pdf
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post #12 of 24 Old 05-11-2015, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holl_ands View Post
I've never seen any models for the HBU-xx series of Antennas and no one has taken the TIME to post some measurements....so we don't know for SURE what happens when the UHF Corner Reflector Elements are hacked off...but FWIW, it made NO difference when I ran Ken Nist's model for the R-S VU-90 with and without it's Corner Reflector (he didn't bother to include UHF Elements). And feel free to hack off the small UHF Elements to make it a bit smaller.
I installed the HBU55 at my dads a several years back, with the flying debris the a couple of the reflectors broke off within a few months, he said he never noted any difference & they are in the fringes (30 miles) from the transmitters.
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post #13 of 24 Old 05-11-2015, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holl_ands View Post
And of course, I have posted some OPTIMIZED DIY Hi-VHF Yagi designs with even higher Raw Gain on the UPPER Channels, which tend to be simpler to build with only ONE Boom:

At first glance that would seem to be true but in reality it is not. I built a couple of K6STI broadband yagis and he said the elements need to be insulated from the boom. That complicates construction. I ended up using acrylic cubes as insulators in the attached image. For each element there are 4 holes to drill in the cube and one to tap and two holes in the boom. In the dual boom LPDA there are 4 holes to drill plus 2 to enlarge. It's basically a wash. In either case you need a drill press to drill the holes.
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post #14 of 24 Old 05-11-2015, 02:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the input guys. Doing a little bit more research, I found that Antennacraft is of course a wholly owned subsidiary of Radio Shack which is (as we all know) bankrupt. The Antennacraft factory was sold and all the capital has been liquidated. They're gone. Period.

Which eliminated my next option - a HBU55. I'm quite literally left with the Winegard 7698 for long range reception. Not only do they have 3db less gain on UHF than a 91XG but I've seen more than a few cases of the UHF director section of the 8200 simply break off (under snow load I assume).

I found one antenna that could work for VHF-Hi: http://xinxidi.com/inquiry.asp?id=7374 It can be found on wholesale sites like alibaba but I have yet to find it available for retail purchase.

Last edited by mattdp; 05-11-2015 at 02:46 PM.
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post #15 of 24 Old 05-11-2015, 03:01 PM
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mattdp: If you Google HBU-33/44/55 you'll find that they are still readily found in stock at Summit Source, eBay and a few other sources...I even found one HBU-55 on Amazon.

Calaveras: Passive (Reflector & Director) Elements can (and in MOST CASES ARE) mounted either Directly on TOP or THRU a Metallic Boom using either special mounting brackets (available from Amateur Radio Antenna stores) or even a simple pair of rivets. When you DO this, a "Boom Correction" needs to be applied for UHF Antennas...and is usually small enough to ignore in Hi-VHF Antennas. Of course, if using a Non-Metallic Boom (e.g. PVC or Fibreglass), NO Boom Correction is needed:
See the Intro Section in my YAGI Antenna Folder:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/yagis

BTW: Due to the close proximity of the "insulators" you show above, if used in a UHF Antenna, some Boom Correction should be applied, DERATED for the distance from the Boom, bearing in mind that Boom Correction is much more important for Narrowband Antennas than Broadband TV Antennas which can readily tolerate considerable mis-tuning.

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post #16 of 24 Old 05-11-2015, 03:04 PM
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I don't know anything about these antennas but they have high VHF antennas:

http://abilityhdtv.com
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post #17 of 24 Old 05-11-2015, 03:29 PM
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Forgot about them...ABILITY (located in Michigan) imports the Fracarro BLV6F, 6-El Hi-VHF Yagi [Click on "Larger Image" to see Gain Curve, which I'm pretty sure is in dBi]:
http://abilityhdtv.com/product-i...nna-pid65.html

And a different Fracarro 6E512F, 6-El Hi-VHF Yagi for a LOT lower price:
http://abilityhdtv.com/product-i...nna-pid66.html
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post #18 of 24 Old 05-11-2015, 03:41 PM - Thread Starter
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The 6E512F looks to be a great replacement for the Y-5-7-13.

What would happen if one were to stack two of those vertically and stick a 91xg (or an 8bay) in the middle?

Slightly OT, but I thought you'd appreciate this holl_ands. I made one of your VHF-Hi 2-bay antennas the other year. 1 story attic and it's got a solid lock on two VHF's at 60mi.
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post #19 of 24 Old 05-11-2015, 06:32 PM
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Stack Away....but try to keep as much Metal-To-Metal distance as possible between adjacent Antennas....preferably 4+ feet if you can....anything less will affect the F/B & F/R Ratios much more than the Gain & SWR:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/stacked

Yup...2-Bay Bowties also work in Hi-VHF Band.....without Reflector, provides about 7.6 to 10.0 dBi with Bi-Directional Pattern....and is very simple to build....although I would build a simple PVC Rectangle just outside the 2-Bay (with a Horizontal Bar in Middle to attach Feedpoint) and tie-wrap a Loop at the end of each Whisker to the Take-Apart Frame (no glue required on VERTICAL sections):
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/hivhf2bay

And adding a set of Reflector Rods adds another 3 dB, or about as much as Y10-7-13:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/mult...hf2bayreflrods

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post #20 of 24 Old 05-19-2015, 12:54 AM
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Any concerns about stacking horizontally? I have a CM4228HD in my attic and I'm planning on mounting a DIY hourglass high-vhf next to it.
I've built Holl_and's hourglass (7 reflector rods) and lent it to a neighbor to try. He said it pulled in channel 11 (physical) without a problem, plus the UHF channels we're both interested in. It'll be a few weeks before I'll get a chance to add it to my attic and I'd like to know if I need to separate the CM4228HD and the hourglass by any significant distance (side-by-side).
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post #21 of 24 Old 05-19-2015, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
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Any concerns about stacking horizontally? I have a CM4228HD in my attic and I'm planning on mounting a DIY hourglass high-vhf next to it.
I've built Holl_and's hourglass (7 reflector rods) and lent it to a neighbor to try. He said it pulled in channel 11 (physical) without a problem, plus the UHF channels we're both interested in. It'll be a few weeks before I'll get a chance to add it to my attic and I'd like to know if I need to separate the CM4228HD and the hourglass by any significant distance (side-by-side).
I haven't run any 4nec2 models for dis-similar Antennas mounted more or less side-by-side....but would advise to use AT LEAST 4-ft Metal-to-Metal separation....and 8-ft would be even better.

The fol. article should be of interest....calculate "D" (Stacking Distance) for the lower frequency Antenna and use THAT as a guide as to how close to Horizontally stack dis-similar Antennas:
http://ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek/stacking/stacking2.htm

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post #22 of 24 Old 06-13-2015, 05:55 AM
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Holl_and's hourglass (7 reflector rods) is now in my attic, about 6 feet away from the CM4228HD. I have two identical 8ft quad-shield RG6 coax runs connected to a standard 2:1 combiner, then down to my Panasonic TV.
Channel 11 (physical) now show a signal strength of around 70, with occasional drop-outs.
Here's the result of some experimentation:

hour-glass alone: 40's
CM4228HD alone: 40's
Blonder-Tongue ZUVSJ instead of combiner: 40's

I found I had to route the coax straight back through the reflector, then down. If I let the coax drape in front of the reflector the TV reported a 10-20 lower signal.

Some of my UHF stations report a lower signal strength (~85 instead of 90's), but others report higher (98 instead of 95).

My single-story house is in a depression, with tall trees all around. I think this is the best I'm going to get with antennas in the attic.
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post #23 of 24 Old 10-13-2017, 10:35 AM
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Thinking of building an hourglass loop antenna using an RG59 cable's braid shield for dedicated VHF-Hi reception, because I also want to guild a Gray Hoverman for UHF but am too intimidated by the complexity of the current UHF+VHF-Hi combo designs. So far I've only built a simple DB4 antenna.

How well would the hourglass loop perform if I used standard 2"x1" wire mesh for a reflector instead of using horizontal reflector rods? If this is feasible, what would be the optimal distance between the loop and the screen?

FYI, I'm most interested in VHF-Hi channels 9 & 11 (186-204 MHz).
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post #24 of 24 Old 10-13-2017, 11:31 AM
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FWIW: Earlier this year I updated my comparisons to include an "Antenna Craft Y10-7-13 versus Stellar Labs 30-2476" comparison, along with a few additional observations and comments.
Find it at http://antennahacks.com/Comparis...ar_30-2476.htm.
Best to all,
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