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Old 12-13-2017, 08:22 AM - Thread Starter
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HDR10+ on Amazon Starts Streaming to Samsung TVs

Approximately 100 TV shows and movies are now available to stream in HDR10+ to compatible Samsung HDR TVs. Click this link to read more: Amazon Streams HDR10+ to 2017 Samsung UHD TVs
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Old 12-13-2017, 08:27 AM
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Thanks Samsung....... I guess
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Old 12-13-2017, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Approximately 100 TV shows and movies are now available to stream in HDR10+ to compatible Samsung HDR TVs.
We can expect a review from you?

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Old 12-13-2017, 08:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob View Post
We can expect a review from you?

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I'll definitely post some impressions.

First things first... since Samsung did not actually announce this (the info came from The Verge and some other publications) I have contacted the company to see what info I can get.

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Old 12-13-2017, 08:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Samsung....... I guess
For what it's worth Panasonic is doing HDR10+ too, but as most folks know that company is currently not selling TVs in the U.S.
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Old 12-13-2017, 11:30 AM
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I recently bought a 2017 C7 LG OLED, will HDR10+ be available as a firmware update?...which offers better image quality HDR10+ or Dolby Vision?
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Old 12-13-2017, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by TitusTroy View Post
I recently bought a 2017 C7 LG OLED, will HDR10+ be available as a firmware update?...which offers better image quality HDR10+ or Dolby Vision?
Dolby Vision is considered a more sophisticated platform for delivering dynamic metadata. Up until now, we haven't seen a content provider do HDR10+ when they weren't already doing Dolby Vision. We'll have to see if Amazon's play changes any of the dynamics with the TV vendors.
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Old 12-13-2017, 12:12 PM
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So does this only apply to the internal Amazon app on my KS8000 or can I use my Roku Ultra and still get HDR10+?
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Old 12-13-2017, 12:28 PM
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FROM HD GURU.COM:

In the latest announcement, Amazon and Samsung said the “entire Amazon Prime Video HDR catalog is now available in HDR10+.” This includes such popular Amazon Prime Originals series as The Grand Tour, The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel, Jean-Claude Van Johnson, The Tick and The Man in the High Castle. Amazon said HDR10+ is also applied to “hundreds of licensed titles.”

https://hdguru.com/amazon-launches-f...10/#more-21345

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Old 12-13-2017, 01:19 PM
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You may not be able to see a difference without side by side comparison, or have a keen I for detail.

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Old 12-13-2017, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob View Post
You may not be able to see a difference without side by side comparison, or have a keen I for detail.

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Comparisons can be made using an external streamer for regular hdr10. If someone has a good camera with a tripod we can get some pretty good pictures.
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Old 12-13-2017, 02:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by anthonymoody View Post
Mark as you can imagine there is a fair bit of chatter about this in the various 2016 Samsung threads, with many pointing to a release, I believe dating back to April/May of this year, wherein Samsung states that 2016 TVs *will* get HDR10+ support.

Can you circle back to your higher-up connections about this please?

TIA
Yes, I can revisit that with my contacts...

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Old 12-13-2017, 05:08 PM
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The lack of discussion about the hdr 10+ rollout on this forum is quite telling concerning the demand for it... Very low. If Sony released the DV update today this forum would be lit up like a Christmas tree. Quite interesting.
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Old 12-13-2017, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by alexanderg823 View Post
The lack of discussion about the hdr 10+ rollout on this forum is quite telling concerning the demand for it... Very low. If Sony released the DV update today this forum would be lit up like a Christmas tree. Quite interesting.
My guess is, if QLED owners are aware of HDR10+, most conversations are or have been confined to those specific threads.

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Old 12-13-2017, 06:15 PM
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Big Whoop. It's a Over rated feature anyways
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Old 12-13-2017, 07:52 PM
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Since projector manufacturers have pretty much said no to DV availability, if projectors can display HDR10+, this will make many people happy.
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Old 12-14-2017, 04:15 AM
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A few things about HDR10+

- Until HDMI 2.1 is released, there will be no external source able to send HDR10+ to an HDR10+ display, not due to bandwidth limitation but also due to the implementation of the feature in the f/w so that the device is able to handle it. So people can expect internal f/w and apps to be updated for select display models, but they shouldn't expect their 2.0x source to be updated to HDR10+ for a little while, unless it supports HDMI 2.1 already (most don't). This is why it's so important to look for HDMI 2.1 support (whether on 18Gb/s HDMI 2.0x hardware or 48Gb/s on HDMI 2.1 hardware) when you buy a new device in 2018.
- Like Dolby Vision, HDR10+ supports dynamic metadata, but unless your display has a really poor native contrast, it doesn't make much of a difference to the picture quality. So unlike what most think, the difference is more visible on low quality displays than on high quality ones. Think about adding a dynamic iris to a projector. It will significantly improve things on a projector with poor on/off, but it won't be as obvious with a projector with excellent on/off.
- Unlike Dolby Vision, HDR10+ is limited to 10bits, while Dolby Vision has an optional layer on UHD Bluray that supports 12bits. This of course only makes a difference if your display supports 12bits natively. It doesn't make any difference if your display only supports 10bits (not on the input, in the panels).
- Unlike Dolby Vision, HDR10+ isn't part of the UHD Bluray specs, so at the moment it's a streaming-only option. The rumor is that a revision of the UHD Bluray specs might be announced at CES next month with support for HDR10+.
- The primary reason for not supporting Dolby Vision in projectors is mainly that Dolby can't know the peak brightness of the display due to all the variables (lamp mode, iris settings, zoom factor, lamp/laser age, etc). Because they can't know the specs for each display, can can't certify a specific model easily (it would have to certify installors/calibrators to do so on a setup by setup basis). The same thing applies to HDR10+, however because no one cares about their reputation being undermined by terrible results in a poorly set-up install, it might be possible for competent enthusiasts/calibrators to calibrate projectors properly for HDR10+ if the manufacturer's implementation allows to specify peak brightness (or better, measures it with an internal meter).
- If you care about HDR10+ support on projectors, make sure that your next source, AVR, display and anything else in the chain (switch, video processor, etc) supports HDMI 2.1 (or can be upgraded to it), otherwise you will be faced by another forced upgrade down the line. This doesn't necessarily mean that they will support the higher 48Gb/s that most won't really need with current content. HDMI 2.1 features such as HDR10+ can be supported on HDMI 2.0x devices. Right now, the HDFury Vertex supports HDR10+ passthrough (over an HDMI 2.0b connection). The Lumagen Radiance Pro should be upgradable to HDMI 2.1, if not from a bandwidth point of view at least from a feature point of view, as Jim has designed the Intensity mapping feature with dynamic metadata in mind from the start. It might be possible on the highest Radiance Pro models (those with more than 4 in/outs) to also up the bandwidth to 36Gb/s by using four in/outs to create one, by upgrading the HDMI board. Re AVRs, the Denon X7200WA (X8500H) and the Marantz 8802 (8805) replacements have announced HDMI 2.1 support with a f/w upgrade shortly after launch (expected Q1 2017). I wouldn't expect too many devices/displays to support HDMI 2.1 until at least Q1 2018. Not that it really matters overall (HDMI 2.0b and HDR10 is absolutely fine for most), but it does matter if you absolutely want HDR10+ from a source coming from outside of a recent TV, look for HDMI 2.1 support.
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Old 12-14-2017, 04:52 AM
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What means may be? It sure new update for HDR10+ in 2016 Models or perhaps?
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Old 12-14-2017, 04:59 AM
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"@SamsungSupport I'm sorry. 2016 models are not, yet, supported. A firmware update may be in the works, though. ^Amanda"

What means may be? It sure new update for HDR10+ or only perhaps?
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Old 12-14-2017, 05:28 AM
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A few things about HDR10+
but unless your display has a really poor native contrast, it doesn't make much of a difference to the picture quality.
I thought it was the brightness that mattered. Not the contrast. HDR+ and DV make a bigger difference for relatively dimmer displays like OLED than they would for LCDs. The brighter the display, the less clipping with regular HDR.
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Old 12-14-2017, 06:52 AM
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I thought it was the brightness that mattered. Not the contrast. HDR+ and DV make a bigger difference for relatively dimmer displays like OLED than they would for LCDs. The brighter the display, the less clipping with regular HDR.
The brightness or nits, has always been only half of HDR, and PQ in general. LCD's currently have a monopoly on nits, but OLED has it on Black levels. Black levels and nits have an affect on color accuracy and achievable depth.

Dark colors and bright colors can be accurately displayed or reproduced from the source material.

It's the reason why local dimming or FALD will have bigger next year, along with other benefits it brings.

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Old 12-14-2017, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Saverio Casadidio View Post
"@SamsungSupport I'm sorry. 2016 models are not, yet, supported. A firmware update may be in the works, though. ^Amanda"

What means may be? It sure new update for HDR10+ or only perhaps?
I talked with a Samsung rep last night on the phone. 2016 Samsung tv's will support HDR10+. A firmware update is in the works and should be out soon.
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Old 12-14-2017, 08:06 AM
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I talked with a Samsung rep last night on the phone. 2016 Samsung tv's will support HDR10+. A firmware update is in the works and should be out soon.
You are sure? In Italy a resp Samsung says Amazon HDR10+ only for Samsung 2017.
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Old 12-14-2017, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob View Post
The brightness or nits, has always been only half of HDR, and PQ in general. LCD's currently have a monopoly on nits, but OLED has it on Black levels. Black levels and nits have an affect on color accuracy and achievable depth.

Dark colors and bright colors can be accurately displayed or reproduced from the source material.

It's the reason why local dimming or FALD will have bigger next year, along with other benefits it brings.

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OK, but DV and HDR+ map brightness as a pct of the displays brightness capabilities, while regular HDR uses absolute values. The advantages of DV and HDR+ only manifest themselves when the brightness of HDR for a given pixel exceeds the brightness capabilities of the TV. If you had a scene where the maximum pixel brightness was say 2000 nits and your TV could only manage 1500 nits, regular HDR would display all pixels over 1500 nits at 1500 nits, while DV and HDR+ would adjust the brightness of every pixel to 75% of what they were supposed to show. HDR+ and DV would maintain the relative brightness of each pixel.

So the advantage of HDR+ and DV diminish as the maximum brightness capabilities go up. And when watching relatively dark content, there may be no difference.
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Old 12-14-2017, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post
OK, but DV and HDR+ map brightness as a pct of the displays brightness capabilities, while regular HDR uses absolute values. The advantages of DV and HDR+ only manifest themselves when the brightness of HDR for a given pixel exceeds the brightness capabilities of the TV. If you had a scene where the maximum pixel brightness was say 2000 nits and your TV could only manage 1500 nits, regular HDR would display all pixels over 1500 nits at 1500 nits, while DV and HDR+ would adjust the brightness of every pixel to 75% of what they were supposed to show. HDR+ and DV would maintain the relative brightness of each pixel.

So the advantage of HDR+ and DV diminish as the maximum brightness capabilities go up. And when watching relatively dark content, there may be no difference.
This is absolutely not the way HDR10 works, or should work. Most displays do not clip at their max brightness, it would produce a horrible picture, especially on OLEDs or even more projectors. They do some tonemapping to display the whole desired range within the available range of the display.

For example, I can display 4000nits titles and resolve up to 4000nits in the content on my JVC projector with a peak brightness of 100-200nits max, simply by designing a custom gamma curve with a gradual soft clipping above 50nits (in fact, above around 400nits in the content) so that it fits into the available dynamic range.

HDR10+ and Dolby Vision simply make sure that the available dynamic range is best used for each scene. For example, if you have a dark scene, you can use the whole of the dynamic range of the display to represent it, which is again comparable to a dynamic iris on projectors.

This is why displays with the least native contrast are bound to benefit more from HDR10+ or Dolby Vision than display with the best native contrast. The peak brightness is one element of that, but only when the black floor is also taken into account.

For example, a projector with a great native contrast of say 120,000:1 such as my JVC with a peak brightness of 120nits will benefit a lot less from HDR10+/Dolby Vision than a crappy LED TV with a peak brightness of 1000nits but a grey black floor (hence a poor native on/off contrast). This is really what these are advanced HDR formats are designed for.

If you have a good OLED or a good projector with great native on/off, I wouldn't fret too much about the lack of HDR10+ or Dolby Vision. If you have a crappy projector or a LED TC with limited native on/off, then the improvements brought by dynamic metadata should be a lot more significant.

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Old 12-14-2017, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post
OK, but DV and HDR+ map brightness as a pct of the displays brightness capabilities, while regular HDR uses absolute values. The advantages of DV and HDR+ only manifest themselves when the brightness of HDR for a given pixel exceeds the brightness capabilities of the TV. If you had a scene where the maximum pixel brightness was say 2000 nits and your TV could only manage 1500 nits, regular HDR would display all pixels over 1500 nits at 1500 nits, while DV and HDR+ would adjust the brightness of every pixel to 75% of what they were supposed to show. HDR+ and DV would maintain the relative brightness of each pixel.

So the advantage of HDR+ and DV diminish as the maximum brightness capabilities go up. And when watching relatively dark content, there may be no difference.
Contrast is one of the reasons SMPTE specifies a black level for LCD and OLED.

DV and HDR+ not only assist in adjusting the EOTF curve for brightness nits, but black level as well. You get much better shadow detail in combination with deep blacks, when the curve dynamically changes shape to the fit the metadata for dark scenes with bright highlights and light sources.

Your essentially narrowing DV/HDR+ down to one approach, which is inaccurate.

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Old 12-14-2017, 09:34 AM
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You are sure? In Italy a resp Samsung says Amazon HDR10+ only for Samsung 2017.

Its what the Samsung rep told me yesterday. Thats all I can go by but we will see if it happens or not.
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Old 12-14-2017, 11:24 AM
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Read my post, this is exactly what I said, I even mentioned the HDR Fury products and the Radiance Pro that support or will support HDR10+ over HDMI 2.0x. HDMI 2.1 hardware isn't required, but the f/w has to support the feature. All I'm saying is that if you want an external SOURCE to be able to provide HDR10+ content, it's unlikely to happen if it doesn't support HDMI 2.1, as it's not part of the HDMI 2.0x specs, but of course it's possible as it's not related to the increased bandwidth.

Some Samsung sources do support it because they created the standard, but I doubt many non-Samsung sources will support it without HDMI 2.1 as well.
Do you happen to know if the Samsung KS9800 series is 2.0b compliant? I don't really want to buy another tv in a couple years but if i can get an HDFury that converts 2.1 to 2.0b I can see myself getting a new HDR10+ HDMI 2.1 blu ray player and/or receiver (if my current one's not 2.0b compliant)
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Old 12-14-2017, 06:18 PM
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This still does not fix what I and the average TV buyer wants and that is to be able to make HDR brighter. HDR should just kick the TV up to less than full brightness and be adjusted accordingly. Most people don't want to watch TV in the dark. I think most people upon watching HDR say "WTF I can't make it any brighter".
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Old 12-14-2017, 08:49 PM
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These posts help explain this for discs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill View Post
This still does not fix what I and the average TV buyer wants and that is to be able to make HDR brighter. HDR should just kick the TV up to less than full brightness and be adjusted accordingly. Most people don't want to watch TV in the dark. I think most people upon watching HDR say "WTF I can't make it any brighter".
Why do some of my 4K discs look too dark?



Why do some of my 4K discs look too dark during day time viewing?

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