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post #1 of 21 Old 12-15-2014, 11:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Does a 4K TV need a 4K A/V Receiver?

Yup, the title pretty much says it all. I just bought a Sony 4k (don't recall the model#, I'm at work) and have a Denon A/V receiver, circa 2008. (IIRC, 3808?) Since all of my video signals are routed through the Denon, I'm wondering if it will be a hindrance to seeing any 4k content, once it comes out.
Thanks,
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post #2 of 21 Old 12-15-2014, 11:38 AM
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That's what I understand. That when the 4k discs come out you'll need (of course) a 4k BD player, and a 4k AVR with different HDMI capabilities to hook it to.

[/B] LG OLED65E6P TV, Yamaha RX-V383 AVR with Paradigm speakers, Cableone STB, Samsung UHD BD player, AppleTV 4K[/B]
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post #3 of 21 Old 12-15-2014, 11:48 AM
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Yes, I recommend a 4K AV Receiver that supports ARC (Audio Return Channel). I had an Onkyo TX-NR609 that said it contained a 4K upscaler, but my 4K TV did not get a video signal from it, so I had to go out and get a new 4K AV Receiver (Onkyo TX-NR636) to get my entire setup running correctly. Very good price to performance ratio.
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post #4 of 21 Old 12-15-2014, 11:59 AM
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I think that for 4k disc input the AVR needs to have HDMI 2.0 capability, whereas older ones (like my 2011-12 Yamaha which does support ARC) have HDMI 1.4. You don't need the AVR to upscale to 4k, you want the TV to do that because it supposedly does a better job. You want the AVR to just "pass through" the video. I think the new 4k ones are supposed to support better audio too.

[/B] LG OLED65E6P TV, Yamaha RX-V383 AVR with Paradigm speakers, Cableone STB, Samsung UHD BD player, AppleTV 4K[/B]
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post #5 of 21 Old 12-15-2014, 12:32 PM
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We don't know if HDMI 2.0 will actually be required for 4K/UHD disc-based content as the specs are not yet finalized. HDMI 1.4 is capable of passing a 3820x2160 signal at up to 30 fps, using 8-bit color depth. So, most 4K/UHD movie content could fit in the bandwith of HDMI 1.4 if it contiues to use the same 24 fps frame rate and 8-bit color depth as is used for current 1080p Blu-Ray discs. HDMI 2.0 will be required for 4K/UHD content that uses higher frame rates (e.g. 50/60 fps for sports) and might also be required for 24/25/30 fps 4K/UHD content if the bit depth is increased in order to support high dynamic range and a wider color gamut.

Regardless of how the above plays out, it is almost certain that your receiver will need to be HDCP 2.2 compliant in order to pass any commercially produced 4K/UHD content. Without HDCP 2.2, your 4K/UHD viewing will be limited to video game graphics, You Tube videos, and whatever home-made videos you or your buddies make.

It's safe to say that any receiver made in 2008 will not be capable of passing a 4K/UHD signal. However, this does not prevent you from passing 1080p content thru your receiver and then having the TV or an external video processor upscale it to 4K/UHD.
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post #6 of 21 Old 12-15-2014, 12:35 PM
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Do the new 4k AVRs have the HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2 now?

[/B] LG OLED65E6P TV, Yamaha RX-V383 AVR with Paradigm speakers, Cableone STB, Samsung UHD BD player, AppleTV 4K[/B]
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post #7 of 21 Old 12-15-2014, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebignewt View Post
Do the new 4k AVRs have the HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2 now?
Only one Onkyo AVR supposedly has it all. The upcoming DENON x7200W will be "upgradable" to HDCP 2.2.

Basically, if you buy anything 4K today and plan on playing future 4K content, you're screwed.
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post #8 of 21 Old 12-15-2014, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Brahmzy View Post
Only one Onkyo AVR supposedly has it all. The upcoming DENON x7200W will be "upgradable" to HDCP 2.2.

Basically, if you buy anything 4K today and plan on playing future 4K content, you're screwed.
Yet another reason to wait a year or so. I bet the Onkyo costs over $1,000.

[/B] LG OLED65E6P TV, Yamaha RX-V383 AVR with Paradigm speakers, Cableone STB, Samsung UHD BD player, AppleTV 4K[/B]
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post #9 of 21 Old 12-15-2014, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by thebignewt View Post
Do the new 4k AVRs have the HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2 now?
The current models have one or the other, but not both. For instance, Denon and Marantz's 2014 models use HDMI chips that support the full 18 Gbps bandwith given by the HDMI 2.0 spec, but they are only HDCP 1.3 compliant. Without an upgrade (which would likely have to be hardware related rather than a simple firmware update) they likely won't pass video from any commercially sold 4K/UHD movies/TV shows. On the flip side, Onkyo's 2014 models (636 and above do support HDCP 2.2, but only support the more limited 10.2 Gbps bandwith (a.k.a. HDMI 2.0 lite). So Onkyo's current receivers will work so long as the bit depth and amount of color sub-sampling stays the same as it is now for frame rates up to 60 fps.

Last edited by HockeyoAJB; 12-15-2014 at 12:57 PM.
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post #10 of 21 Old 12-15-2014, 01:06 PM
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Sony have released two AV receivers that are HDCP 2.2 compliant, STR-ZA2000ES, and STR-ZA3000ES.
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post #11 of 21 Old 12-15-2014, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brahmzy View Post
Only one Onkyo AVR supposedly has it all. The upcoming DENON x7200W will be "upgradable" to HDCP 2.2.

Basically, if you buy anything 4K today and plan on playing future 4K content, you're screwed.
My understanding is that the Onkyo receiver to which you are referring uses both types of HDMI chips, but on different ports. Some ports supports HDCP 2.2 and others support the full 18 Gbps bandwidth, but none of the ports support both.

The chip sets which actually support both HDCP 2.2 and 18 Gbps on the same port only became available to receiver manufacturers just recently. So it will be up to each manufacturer how they want to handle upgrades of existing models. The good news is that 2015 models should use the new chips on at least input and output port.
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post #12 of 21 Old 12-15-2014, 06:16 PM
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+1. And to be clear, ARC has been around for quite sometime. It is part of HDMI 1.4 hardware protocols so HDMI 2.0 has nothing to do with ARC. What HDMI 2.0, once the fully capable chipsets are available, will have is CEC Extensions, which is usually associated with ARC because both require HDMI. CEC Extensions should eliminate the problems that a lot of people have with using a single remote for universal control of your HTS. But, all of your devices will have to have HDMI 2.0 compatible chipsets.
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post #13 of 21 Old 11-16-2015, 06:14 PM
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I'm about to buy a 4K TV, either the Sony XBR65X850C or the 930C, and I have a Pioneer Elite VSX-80. Do I need to upgrade that or is it compatible with a 4K TV?
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post #14 of 21 Old 11-17-2015, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by trevrox View Post
I'm about to buy a 4K TV, either the Sony XBR65X850C or the 930C, and I have a Pioneer Elite VSX-80. Do I need to upgrade that or is it compatible with a 4K TV?
It looks like your receiver uses HDMI 2.0 (18 Gbps) ports, but lacks support for HDCP 2.2 copy protection. If all of your source devices are 1080p with HDCP 1.3 protection (e.g. Blu-Ray player, Roku 3, FireTV 1, AppleTV, PS4, XBox One, etc.) or 4K without copy protection (e.g. 4K gaming on a PC, 4K YouTube, or personal 4K video recordings) then you are good to go. Both your AVR and TV would be compatible with these sources. However, if you plan to purchase a new 4K source device (e.g. Ultra HD Blu-Ray player, Roku 4, FireTV 2, Nvidia Shield console, or TiVo Bolt) and view HDCP 2.2 copy protected 4K content then you may want to consider upgrading your AVR at some point. You can get around its lack of support for HDCP 2.2 by hooking the source devices that require it directly to your TV and then running optical from the source device/TV to your current AVR. Or, by using HDMI ARC to pass the audio from your TV to your AVR. Or, if the source device has dual HDMI outputs with split audio and video output, you would run the video directly from the source device to your TV and the audio directly from the source device to your AVR, using two HDMI cables.
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post #15 of 21 Old 11-17-2015, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyoAJB View Post
It looks like your receiver uses HDMI 2.0 (18 Gbps) ports, but lacks support for HDCP 2.2 copy protection. If all of your source devices are 1080p with HDCP 1.3 protection (e.g. Blu-Ray player, Roku 3, FireTV 1, AppleTV, PS4, XBox One, etc.) or 4K without copy protection (e.g. 4K gaming on a PC, 4K YouTube, or personal 4K video recordings) then you are good to go. Both your AVR and TV would be compatible with these sources. However, if you plan to purchase a new 4K source device (e.g. Ultra HD Blu-Ray player, Roku 4, FireTV 2, Nvidia Shield console, or TiVo Bolt) and view HDCP 2.2 copy protected 4K content then you may want to consider upgrading your AVR at some point. You can get around its lack of support for HDCP 2.2 by hooking the source devices that require it directly to your TV and then running optical from the source device/TV to your current AVR. Or, by using HDMI ARC to pass the audio from your TV to your AVR. Or, if the source device has dual HDMI outputs with split audio and video output, you would run the video directly from the source device to your TV and the audio directly from the source device to your AVR, using two HDMI cables.
I am curious as to what signal type is passed back to the AVR when using the HDMI ARC or the optical? Is it Dolby TrueHD or just Dolby Digital?
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post #16 of 21 Old 11-17-2015, 04:10 PM
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ARC is only capable of passing 5.1, just like optical. Neither can pass Dolby TrueHD, DTS-MA, etc. The only real advantage of ARC is the elimination of the optical cable.
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post #17 of 21 Old 11-17-2015, 06:18 PM
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Thank you for this info. I am in a similar situation as the OP. I have a 12-13 year old Denon avr 3803. I have always connected video directly to the TV and optical to the Receiver from the various sources. So with a new receiver I will need to connect video/HDMI of the blue ray through the receiver and then onto the TV to enjoy the newer (for me) sound formats. I cannot connect the HDMI blue ray to the TV and then connect the HDMI ARC TV back to the Receiver to get the newer formats. Correct? I apologize if these are dumb questions but as you can see I have been behind the times and finally decided to jump back in.
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post #18 of 21 Old 11-17-2015, 08:06 PM
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That is correct. For HD audio, you would need a receiver that has those capabilities. The blu-ray player, if it has those audio formats, should be connected via HDMI to the receiver with an HDMI cable connecting the receiver to the tv for video. That way, all audio, regardless of the format is decoded in the receiver and played back with just the video being passed to the tv. Most, if not all receivers can already do that. That capability is available with HDMI 1.4 so you don't need to upgrade to an HDMI 2.0 receiver. However, video is entirely different and with UHD available now with tv, and coming next year on blu-ray, all of your devices need to have the latest HDMI 2.0a (and probably HDCP 2.2) chipsets to display the video natively (no upconversion). There are workarounds for all of that but basically everything will eventually need to be upgraded if you want to take advantage of the latest audio and video formats.
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post #19 of 21 Old 11-17-2015, 08:14 PM
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There are 4k hdmi switches.. you can use for video portion of the switching.. But it would get a little messy.. I think there are 4k switches with dual output.. I think I have one.. But then the mess is the wires and you would need a programmable remote, with macro capability.. Not the most convenient option for living room set up.
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post #20 of 21 Old 11-17-2015, 09:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
That is correct. For HD audio, you would need a receiver that has those capabilities. The blu-ray player, if it has those audio formats, should be connected via HDMI to the receiver with an HDMI cable connecting the receiver to the tv for video. That way, all audio, regardless of the format is decoded in the receiver and played back with just the video being passed to the tv. Most, if not all receivers can already do that. That capability is available with HDMI 1.4 so you don't need to upgrade to an HDMI 2.0 receiver. However, video is entirely different and with UHD available now with tv, and coming next year on blu-ray, all of your devices need to have the latest HDMI 2.0a (and probably HDCP 2.2) chipsets to display the video natively (no upconversion). There are workarounds for all of that but basically everything will eventually need to be upgraded if you want to take advantage of the latest audio and video formats.
Thanks again. I just purchased a Sony 65 4k TV. I am looking to replace the Denon 3803 with something that can handle the upcoming 4k players. My short list includes the Pioneer VSX 1130K, Denon AVR S910, X1200W and the Sony STR DN1060.
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post #21 of 21 Old 11-18-2015, 05:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingofpain View Post
Thanks again. I just purchased a Sony 65 4k TV. I am looking to replace the Denon 3803 with something that can handle the upcoming 4k players. My short list includes the Pioneer VSX 1130K, Denon AVR S910, X1200W and the Sony STR DN1060.
I've had this AVR for about 3 weeks and love it.
I have had numerous Pioneer AVRs.

Perhaps I misremembered.

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