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Old 07-31-2010, 07:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Please Help !! How to determine Box dimensions for a sealed enclosure using 15 inch driver !!

so ive looked at alot of sites giving all these equations and i just dont get it, nothing makes sense . If someone could put it ito simplier terms id really appreciate it.
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Old 07-31-2010, 07:59 PM
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You need the Thiele and Small parameters for the driver. Then you can input them into a free program such as Unibox or WinISD and get a variety of alignments for that driver. You need Qes, Qms, Fs, Vas, Sd and Re as a minimum. Don't worry what they mean for the moment, just get them for your driver and post them or a link to the datasheet and someone can help from there.

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Old 07-31-2010, 08:07 PM
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the simplest way is to use what the manufacturer suggests. that way you don't have to know anything. otherwise, follow alpha niners advice.

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Old 07-31-2010, 08:39 PM - Thread Starter
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ok i think im going to download that program but yeah the driver i was going to use is the Dayton RSS390HF-4 15"


specs are : * Power handling: 500 watts RMS/800 watts max * VCdia: 2-1/2" * Le: 1.00 mH * Impedance: 4 ohms * Re: 3.3 ohms * Frequency range: 18 - 800 Hz * Fs: 18 Hz * Magnet weight: 150 oz. * SPL: 90 dB 2.83 V/1m, 87 dB 1W/1m * Vas: 9.95 cu. ft. * Qms: 3.10 * Qes: .49 * Qts: .42 * Xmax: 14mm * Dimensions: Overall diameter 15-5/16", Cutout diameter 14-1/8", Depth 6-1/8".
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Old 07-31-2010, 09:31 PM
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That driver needs a 160L enclosure for a QTC of .703. Unless something is wrong with the .wdr file I downloaded...
The HO version of that subwoofer works better in a 50l enclosure. You can download the .wdr file from here
http://hometheatershack.com/foru...tml#post200151

Spend the extra $20 for the Dayton Titanic, more xmax=more spl. Works well in a 90l enclosure.

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Old 07-31-2010, 09:46 PM - Thread Starter
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im totaly new at this so i havbe no idea what your saying example : "That driver needs a 160L enclosure for a QTC of .703. " i have no clue what that means, but hey that other sub you mentioned i was definetly looking at that it looked like a good value i didnt know if it was worth it or not but now you said somthing id rather spend the extra 20.
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Old 07-31-2010, 09:51 PM - Thread Starter
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so new sub picked !! What box demensions would i need for the Dayton TIT400C-4 15" .


specs

Power handling: 800 watts RMS/1,100 watts max * VCdia: 2-1/2" * Le: 2.57 mH * Impedance: 4 ohms * Re: 3.8 ohms * Frequency range: 19-500 Hz * Magnet weight: 136 oz. * Fs: 24 Hz * SPL: 91.7 dB 2.83V/1m, 88.7 dB 1W/1m * Vas: 5.46 cu. ft. * Qms: 6.75 * Qes: .52 * Qts: .49 * Xmax: 20.5mm * Dimensions: Overall Diameter: 15-9/16", Cutout Diameter: 14-1/16", Mounting Depth: 8-3/8".
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Old 07-31-2010, 09:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAYAVHD View Post

ok i think im going to download that program but yeah the driver i was going to use is the Dayton RSS390HF-4 15"


specs are : * Power handling: 500 watts RMS/800 watts max * VCdia: 2-1/2" * Le: 1.00 mH * Impedance: 4 ohms * Re: 3.3 ohms * Frequency range: 18 - 800 Hz * Fs: 18 Hz * Magnet weight: 150 oz. * SPL: 90 dB 2.83 V/1m, 87 dB 1W/1m * Vas: 9.95 cu. ft. * Qms: 3.10 * Qes: .49 * Qts: .42 * Xmax: 14mm * Dimensions: Overall diameter 15-5/16", Cutout diameter 14-1/8", Depth 6-1/8".

Vas is different between the main page info on the PE site (9.9 cf/280.3L) vs the datasheet (41cf/1161.4L) so I got 586L for a sealed Qt=0.707 box. Something is screwy.

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Old 07-31-2010, 10:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAYAVHD View Post

im totaly new at this so i havbe no idea what your saying example : "That driver needs a 160L enclosure for a QTC of .703. " i have no clue what that means

Q in this case means the shape of the high pass filter the driver and box form when used together; high pass because it lets the higher frequencies pass through, but as you go lower in frequency the lower frequencies are reduced in level.

Look at the attachment.

Q=0.707 is called maximally flat or Butterworth and is generally the best compromise for a sealed sub enclosure. As you can see from the black line, response is flat until you get to Fbox where it begins to roll off smoothly. This gives you the most bass extension in the smallest sealed box.
Q=0.5 is called critically damped and rolls off at a shallower rate but will require a bigger box.
Q>0.707 comes from using a smaller box than for a Q=0.707 alignment. As you can see the response peaks and the peak is larger as the Q value increases as the box gets smaller. What this means sonically is the higher Q alignments will boom and ring on longer. If you were playing a descending scale on a it would sound like the notes around the peak are louder and take longer to decay: boomy, one note bass. You don't want that for good sound.

The driver T/S figures and the enclosure size work together to give you the final Q you want.
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Old 07-31-2010, 10:56 PM
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alpha niner, something is screwy. i loaded that driver into winisd a long time ago and the specs that i have don't match either the parts express or the spec sheet.

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Old 07-31-2010, 11:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

alpha niner, something is screwy. i loaded that driver into winisd a long time ago and the specs that i have don't match either the parts express or the spec sheet.

Most of the RS line has had parameter changes over the years.
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Old 07-31-2010, 11:36 PM
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didn't know that soho. i was talking about the titanic-4ohm.

i asked a question about the those monster horns that your were working on, but it apparently got lost in space. i just re-posted it. hope you can reply.

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Old 08-01-2010, 12:40 AM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

i was talking about the titanic-4ohm.

Sorry, I have 220l for that one. I got my info from a Dumax report on it from somewhere years ago.
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Old 08-01-2010, 12:53 AM
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JAYAVHD, what they are talking about is using the Thiele-Small specs to figure out what is the best volume for the desire speaker. The Qtc or Q is the response times or ringing. Higher Q means more response times or more ringing. The Qtc is mainly designated for when the speaker driver is placed inside a box while Qts is in free air or no box. The Fs is the resonant frequency of the speaker in free air. The Fc or Fsb is the resonant frequency that is placed in a box. The F3 is the at the lowest frequency at -3 dB. The Qes is the electrical dampening that comes from the effect of the memory of the inductor or the voice coil. The Qms is the mechanical dampening of the speaker driver which includes the spider, suspension, and a small portion of the cone. Qes and Qms are calculated together to get Qts. Xmax is the maximum excursions or how far the voice coil can move in and out of the magnet gap. Sometimes it is spec at one way or it can be spec peak to peak. Be careful if it is spec at peak to peak because you have to divide it half for simulations.

A good site to get formulas to design a sealed box for the desire Q.

http://diysubwoofers.org/


I suggest the following book to learn about speakers and speaker building.

Speaker Building 201
http://parts-express.com/pe/show...number=500-044

To dig deeper into speaker building I suggest the following book.

Loudspeaker Design Cookbook
http://parts-express.com/pe/show...number=500-035

I recommend the Woofer Tester to make sure you are using the correct specs for your woofer even though sealed boxes does not require accurate specs.
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Old 08-01-2010, 01:10 AM - Thread Starter
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im still having a hard time grasping your concepts, i guess i need to know alot more about things. I downloaded the WinIsd and i dont really know or understand what im doing. I put in all the info for the daytona titanic 15in, then go to the next stage where you choose box material width, now i put 1 inch in and i click on the optimum button and it gives me box H x W x D, now the measurements it gives me seem real huge for a box but so far am i doing everything right ?

Basiclly let me put it this way dose anyone know some good reading material for me to try and understand what all these specs are and how to understand and properly use winISD.

but for now if i use the Dayton TIT400C-4 15" Titanic Mk III with a sealed enclosure, what HxWxD enclosure would be good to use, size aint no thing.


IM As big As a NEWB can get when it comes to sub building so be gentle
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Old 08-01-2010, 01:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Yeah thanks for geting on my level, im definetly investing in that book !!

Also a quick question well questionss....

what do you mean when you say, Ringing and Resonant Frequency
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Old 08-01-2010, 03:42 PM
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Resonant Frequency (Google is your friend) - http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...und/reson.html And an explanation of the Theile/Small parameters - http://eminence.com/resources/data.asp
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Old 08-01-2010, 04:15 PM
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like i said man, the easiest way is to look for suggested or actual implementation. there is so much to all of this that unless you want to spend a year or two learning it all, it would be easiest to just follow a proven build. you said titanic mkiii, so here is a build:

http://parts-express.com/pe/show...number=300-764

if you want much better performance, here is what to do:

1. get two av15h drives from aespeakers.com (call john j. and tell him you are from online-shashki, ask for good pricing and have him wire them for 8 ohms.)
2. build yourself two rock solid enclosures, 18" cubes. use two layers of 3/4 plywood. pl premium for joining.
3. stuff them with fiberglass.
4. buy a behringer ep4000 amp.
5. buy a behringer mic2200 pre amp. this will give you 2 bands of parametric eq.
6. wire the subs in parallel, hook them up to your amp, and fire away!

you don't need to learn anything about vas, qes, sensitivity, compliance, or anything. just send a thank you note when you are up and running. :-)

Listen. It's All Good.
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Old 08-01-2010, 09:25 PM - Thread Starter
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dude i appreciate your concern but i would never buy that kit for 749.99 that defeats the whole purpose. I have building skills its just with all this talk about getting this calcution right and this port whole can only be this length it makes me nervous to build a box and have it sound crapy you know. but from alot of reading so far im think im getting the hang of it. This stuff is so awesome and intresting to me, and i want to learn cuz im 24 i dont make alot of money and i love home theater and audio so if i can build my own equipment it be such a better value and its your own creation one of a kind that could easily rival 1,000 - 5,000 speakers and subs you know. plus im not pulling the trigger on anything untill i feel like i have a clear understanding of general speaker and sub building. Plus my brothers gf's dad makes like really high end furniture like real high end and just konwing i can go to his shop anytime to get some really gnarly designs idea and help with real veneers and al that is real exciting, i can only imagine the subs and speakers i could come up with, i almost want him to try and start making subs istead of furniture how awesome would that be.
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Old 08-01-2010, 09:36 PM - Thread Starter
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ae speaker looks real sick !!! how come no one metioned them before !! i think im going to take that advice !!
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Old 08-01-2010, 09:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAYAVHD View Post

ae speaker looks real sick !!! how come no one metioned them before !!

When you come in asking about mods for a Corvette, it is normal to not get info about a Saleen S7.

Yes, cars. I went there.
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Old 08-02-2010, 05:22 PM
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"dude i appreciate your concern but i would never buy that kit "

hey dude back (lol), i wasn't suggesting that you buy the kit. i linked to it because it provides dimensions for a sub with the driver that you were asking about. i.e. it is a proven enclosure size for the driver.

we have at least 3 different sets of driver measurements and that is confusing the whole modeling process. normally, with accurate specs, i could just tell you what size enclosure will provide what kind of results. since we don't have good driver specs, i figured just used the enclosure size that is being sold by the company that is also selling the driver.

that amp may have some eq in it that helps optimize in room response.

were you also planning to invest in measurement equipment?

at a minimum, you need an spl meter from radio shack for $45. a higher end rig would be a behringer mic, external sound card with phantom power, and software. most folks use free software, so don't worry about money on that.

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Old 08-02-2010, 10:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

1. get two av15h drives from aespeakers.com (call john j. and tell him you are from online-shashki, ask for good pricing and have him wire them for 8 ohms.)

The pricing is at AE Speakers store. Also can select either 2 or 4 ohms. At this time an AE Speakers AV15-H costs about $249. The woofers are dual voice coil so the coils have to wire up in series to get an 8 ohm. Sure you can call to try to get a discount.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JAYAVHD View Post

ae speaker looks real sick !!! how come no one metioned them before !! i think im going to take that advice !!

It is easier to deal with one instead to deal with a decision of which one is better during the design process. For a novice, I suggest stick with one woofer and play with the simulations. Sealed boxes will be the easiest.

If you want others, Exodus Audio, Elemental Designs, Peerless, Creative Sound Solutions, Sound Splinter, Sound Solution Audio, Ascendant Audio, Mach 5 Audio just to name a few.

In WinISD, set the amount of watts for the design, so you can see the cone excursions or Xmax. If the Xmax is exceeded at the frequency you are trying achieve, the woofer is bottoming out. Always design the woofer so it stays under Xmax at the wattage you want to put into it. Pe is the power limit of the woofer, but WinISD does not use this spec for the SPL output.

Another simulation that you can use is Unibox by Kristian Ougaard. It is a spreadsheet simulation, so you will need at least Microsoft Excel 2000 to use it. It is easier than WinISD.

In any speaker simulating programs you will have to convert Vb into dimensions. If Vb uses cubic feet, multiply it by 1728 to get cubic inches. When Vb is in liters, multiply by 1000 to get cubic centimeters. Take either of these numbers to the cubic root or take the number to the third power. This gives you a number for length, width, and height. To convert liters to cubic feet, multiply liters by 0.0353. Do not mix US and metric measurements or else the box will be too small or too big.

I suggest buy the book titled "Speaker Building 201." It will teach you about the specs which are helpful while using simulation programs.

Do not need a sound card with phantom power. The phantom power is used for headphones. You just need the Dayton Audio Woofer Tester. It helps to measure the specs of the speaker driver and helps to break-in the speaker driver.
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Old 08-03-2010, 12:43 AM
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"Do not need a sound card with phantom power. The phantom power is used for headphones. "

you might want to check on that.

Listen. It's All Good.
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Old 08-03-2010, 12:48 AM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post


if you want much better performance, here is what to do:

1. get two av15h drives from aespeakers.com (call john j. and tell him you are from online-shashki, ask for good pricing and have him wire them for 8 ohms.)
2. build yourself two rock solid enclosures, 18" cubes. use two layers of 3/4 plywood. pl premium for joining. Scott adds: Or both in a dual-opposed sealed enclosure.
3. stuff them with fiberglass.
4. buy a behringer ep4000 amp.
5. buy a behringer mic2200 pre amp. this will give you 2 bands of parametric eq.
6. wire the subs in parallel, hook them up to your amp, and fire away!

you don't need to learn anything about vas, qes, sensitivity, compliance, or anything. just send a thank you note when you are up and running. :-)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This.

Build. Power. Enjoy.
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Old 08-03-2010, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"Do not need a sound card with phantom power. The phantom power is used for headphones. "

you might want to check on that.

Phantom power is short for a power amplifier. Can easily buy an amplifier. Look into it? I already did over a decade ago.

If you are thinking about microphones, all sound cards have phantom power because they are designed to work with cheap condenser microphones.
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Old 08-03-2010, 10:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Alright so check it out, first off i just want to say thanks to best buy for firing me the day after my birthday, i new i should of snaged a tv when i had the chance haha, anyway so i have been like going crazy tryin to larn all this stuff but actually it finally clicked today. So let me give you the heads up cuz i also have some new questions as well. As of now i really have been focusing on the AE AV-15h, scince the dayton titanic had to many versions of the TS parameters ( look at me souding all professional haha ) i decided to say screw it and go with the AV-15h. Now ive been doing multiple enclosures in WINISD trying to figure out which type, size and tuning freQ to go with. Now it would be nice to have a second opinion plus it will let me know if im realy understanding everything yet, so after multiple enclosures, im leaning at a 7000-9000 cubic inch eclosure so around 26h x 21w x 20d inch's, im going for a ported enclosure to me it seemed like the best box for this driver and a tuning frequency of 30hz which i think is good also considering added room gain. Now its also had an Fs of about 28 hz. Now my line on my graph begins to decline slightly down to -1db at around 100hz and stays at -1db untill about 50hz and rises back up to 0hz, from what i no so far this isant a huge deal correct me if im wrong. Now the only concern i have with a ported enclsure is the Delay peaks at its fs and compared to closed enclosures theres not delay, now once agian that might just be a factor you deal with when you go with ported boxs. Now that is what i was able to come up with and the overall size is what i wanted to go for to anything bigger would be pushing it. as far as the ports i havent decided im stuck between a single 5 inch, two 4inch or a vent at the bottom. Now this actually leads me to one of my questions, in WinISD when choosing your ports and you choose the sqaure option for a vent it changes from asking for diameter to two box's blank times blank, do they mean L x H or H x L of the vent you want to make ?? i dont know what demensions they want exactly, if you know it would really help me out. Now moving on, next question the AV-15h driver is dual voice coil and when you buy one from AE's website you choose impediance either " dual 2ohm " or " dual 4 ohm " now im pretty sure id want the dual 4 ohm right ? and also when i wire up my Woofer to the amp i want to use a " Parallel " connection correct ? Whats the the difference from doing parallel vs series anyway ? But thats all i got for you guys for now lets see who really knows his stuff and can put me straight. I just lost my job all i have is my sub build left help a brother out !!!
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Old 08-27-2010, 06:27 PM
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your post is very confusing.

the vent diameter numbers are the height and the width of the slot port. the length is how far it extends into the sub.

if you have the space, you could build some 8 cubic foot enclosures tuned to 20 hz with 3" high x 18" wide x 40" deep slot ports. you can bend the port to run up the back of the sub enclosure.

you would get the dual 4 ohm drivers, then wire them in series. that will give you 8 ohms.

then you will wire the two 8 ohm enclosures in parallel, which gives 4 ohms.

hook up to the ep2500/4000 amp in bridged mode and knock yourself out.

like this:


LL

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