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Old 06-23-2011, 11:55 AM - Thread Starter

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That you can use? I know on the 160 you have 130 free out of 149 available
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Old 06-23-2011, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by JP73 View Post

That you can use? I know on the 160 you have 130 free out of 149 available

With 320GB hard drive, only 263GB free space available from 298GB actual hard drive capacity.

PS3 OS always reserve 10-12% from the hard drive capacity.

20GB = 15/18GB
60GB = 47/55GB
80GB = 64/74GB (10GB reserved)
160GB = 130/149GB (19GB reserved)
200GB = 167/186GB (19GB reserved)
250GB = 205/232GB (27GB reserved)
320GB = 263/298GB (35GB reserved)
500GB = 413/465GB (52GB reserved)

This has been years old question. Why does PS3 OS use the reserved space? One use is temporary game caching. While that is true because several PS3 games that don't have any mandatory install clearly caches the temporary game data in the background to the hard drive, it doesn't explain why PS3 OS always need to reserve 10-12% of the total hard drive space. Seriously for a 500GB hard drive, why does PS3 OS need to reserve 52GB? Sony has never once clarify the reason. My theory is PS3 OS was hard coded and when hard drive was small such as 20-80GB, a few missing GB wasn't as obvious. Now, the latest retail PS3 hard drive is 320GB and missing 35GB is more obvious to gamers. Sony knows that and to fix the hard code hard drive reserve percentage, it's more tricky to do because either Sony has to tell the gamers that they need to do a full backup, reformat the hard drive and restore the backup data, or Sony has to develop a hard drive resizer. Full hard drive backup as complications because certain copy protected data can cause the restore to fail. Again Sony doesn't want to update the full hard drive backup. These maybe my theories on the reason Sony never explains why PS3 OS always has to reserve a fixed percentage of the hard drive. With any companies today that seem to keep the flaw design in the product quiet, they are hiding something, often too costy or complicated to fix.
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Old 06-23-2011, 12:31 PM
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The PS3 probably doesn't have a file system that was designed for such large HDD's.
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Old 06-23-2011, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Uronacid View Post

The PS3 probably doesn't have a file system that was designed for such large HDD's.

If it's because of poor designed PS3 file system, then it will be harder to fix especially keeping compatibility on pre-formatted hard drive and redesigned file system. Sony did improved the PS3 file system once by enhancing the file system database which I heard needs to be rebuild every so often. Because the PS3 file system is Sony proprietary, we have no idea how "complete" PS3 file system is. It could have been a basic version of some Unix file system that is based on. If it's truly as flaw as I said, Sony will never make it public. We'll never know unless the info is leaked from Sony engineers that designed the PS3 file system.

Also Sony is not an operation system company like Microsoft. Not saying Microsoft or X360 has great OS or file system, but at least Microsoft has more experience with OS and file system.

I have 320GB 7200RPM hard drive on one of my PS3 that I use as primary console. Over the year as I have more and more games/files on the internal hard drive, it gets slower and slower like after I login to XMB or quit from a game, it takes longer for the "circuling arrows" icons to display everything on the XMB. It has lousy files sorting and "fake" directory system which just grouping by label, date or type. Encrypting everything on the hard drive also slows the performance down.

I know this is getting off topic from the thread but it has to do with game OS. The in-game XMB that appears when pressed "PS" button while in the games is horribly slow. X360 in-game dashboard pops up immediately when I pressed the Guide button. On PS3, the in-game XMB takes several seconds having to load. Trying to read or write messages while in-game XMB is very sluggish. On X360, read or write message while in-game dashboard is quicker than on full dashboard.
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Old 06-23-2011, 03:08 PM
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But you know, there should be consumer laws that say if it says 160GB on the box you should get 160 for your own use. If that means Sony has to put a 190GB drive in the machine so that they can advertise 160, so be it.
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Old 06-23-2011, 03:15 PM
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But you know, there should be consumer laws that say if it says 160GB on the box you should get 160 for your own use. If that means Sony has to put a 190GB drive in the machine so that they can advertise 160, so be it.
Remember the false advertising of actual hard drive capacity years ago? I see someone asking where the missing disk space go on PS3 every once in a while. It's probably because most PS3 owners don't even look at the total free space before they installed anything on their PS3. By the time if they do look at the hard drive free space available, many just assume the installed games took them without doing the math. What I'm saying is there are simply not enough PS3 owners to question and sue Sony for hiding the actual usable hard drive space in PS3 after formatted. For Sony, there's no reason to spend the money to try fix the poor PS3 file system.

That's how marketing works for any product. You never get what is advertised. Always full of advertising lies printed all over the product.
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Old 06-23-2011, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by atek99 View Post
But you know, there should be consumer laws that say if it says 160GB on the box you should get 160 for your own use. If that means Sony has to put a 190GB drive in the machine so that they can advertise 160, so be it.
I recently purchased a new 500gb Western Digital drive for one of my older laptops. When I opened the box I was pleasantly surprised to find a slip of paper informing me that instead of 500gb the drive was actually 640gb!! Needless to say, next time I need to purchase a drive it will be Western Digital.
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Old 06-23-2011, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Vortex3D View Post
Remember the false advertising of actual hard drive capacity years ago?
What do you mean, years ago? It's still happening. My "2TB" hard drive has only 1.81TB.

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Old 06-23-2011, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by moothemagiccow View Post
What do you mean, years ago? It's still happening. My "2TB" hard drive has only 1.81TB.
It says so on the box though now.

2TB in base 10 = 10^12

2TB in base 2(which is what your computer will spit back out) = 2^40

2000000000000 <> 2199023255552

The correct abbreviation for your PC to return would actually be TiB(Tebibyte)

You bought at 2 Terabyte hard drive which is a 1.81 Tebibyte hard drive so you got exactly what you paid for.

On the exterior of the packaging it should say somewhere that your computer understands binary whereas the masses don't. Because of this you will see a discrepancy between what you "think" should be there and what actually is.

2000000000000(2TB)/1099511627776(1TiB) = 1.8189894 TiB = 2TB

Oh, something from the Wikipedia terabyte article I didn't know:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
The capacities of computer storage devices are typically specified using the standard SI meaning of unit prefixes, but many operating systems and applications report in binary-based units. Mac OS X 10.6 (Snow Leopard) reports decimal units.
Makes sense, Apple probably got tired of people just not getting it.

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Old 06-23-2011, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HawaiianHDaddict View Post
I recently purchased a new 500gb Western Digital drive for one of my older laptops. When I opened the box I was pleasantly surprised to find a slip of paper informing me that instead of 500gb the drive was actually 640gb!! Needless to say, next time I need to purchase a drive it will be Western Digital.
I remember long time ago, certain Maxtor hard drives gave you a few Gigs more than the advertised size. Even IBM for a short time tried to have actual drive capacity as advertised but that didn't last very long as other manufacturers continued to lie about the actual capacity.

Marketing observation. When the laptop hard drive comes with larger than advertised capacity, the laptop manufacturer proudly includes a paper slip telling you that. But when the actual capacity is smaller than advertised, the manufacturer either hides the fact or put it in fine print. Just how marketing works. That's the beauty of marketing, hide the lies on what is advertised and make a big deal if there's extra bonus.
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Old 06-23-2011, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris Schempp View Post
It says so on the box though now.
...
The correct abbreviation for your PC to return would actually be TiB(Tebibyte)
...
On the exterior of the packaging it should say somewhere that your computer understands binary whereas the masses don't. Because of this you will see a discrepancy between what you "think" should be there and what actually is.
...
Personally I often use "gigabytes" than GB when trying to explain to someone about the advertised drive capacity. Still people often gives me the confused look as why I use "gigabytes" than more commonly used GB because they are so educated as GB = gigabytes.

A little off topic but internet providers love to use bitrate when advertise the speed (at the top of actual speed is slower than advertised and they often don't tell you the upload speed). We know 8 bit = 1 byte. For advertising, using bit/sec appears 8X larger. But users see bytes/sec when they download files which "appears" 8X slower than advertised "speed" in bit.

An amusing true story. Once I asked an internet provider salesguy what their upload speed is. He kept telling in bit/sec as usual but when I translated that back in byte/sec which is 8X "slower", he got very confused as why the upload is so slow.

As large online/Cloud storage gets more popular, it will be interesting how internet providers are going to explain why it's so slow to upload large files to online storage when the internet provider advertises to be "fast".

Also, the inconsistency of how CD and DVD capacity are advertised. With CD-R, 650MB really means you can store 650 million bytes of files on it. (It varies with different CD-R manufacturers as most have extra few megs). 4.7GB DVD+R stores about 4,482,xxx,xxx bytes of files. DVD-R gives you 4,489,xxx,xxx bytes of space. At the top, DVD-DL is called DVD9 which is advertised as 8.5GB of space but reality is only about 8 billion bytes of space. Sometimes I want to fill the disc 100% and with such inconsistency on how the available space is advertised, I have to translate how much data I can really on on different types of media. Worse if if I filled up a DVD-R with 100% capacity, I can't copy disc to disc to DVD+R disc as it has smaller capacity.
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Old 06-23-2011, 10:02 PM
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This is an issue that has plagued storage capacity devices since the invention of them in the first place. The following link does a great job of explaining it:

When a Byte is not a Byte.

It all comes down to binary counting versus base-ten counting. When computers were becoming all the rage and floppy disks and low capacity hard drives were used, the manufacturers decided to count their products' storage capacity using the base ten system because they figured it would be easier for the consumer to understand. In addition, at the time when storage capacity was very low, the differences between an advertised MB based on the base-ten system versus the actual MB based on the binary system was minimal. (1000 bytes versus 1,024 bytes. The manufacturers figured that nobody would really notice a shortage of 24 bytes).

The problem came as hard drive capacities started getting larger and larger, and due to the binary system of counting, the discrepancy in capacity size grew larger and larger.

If you take the 500 GB example, you can quite easily do the math yourself:

1 KB = 1,024 bytes
1 MB = 1,024 KB
1 GB = 1,024 MB

For 500 GB, you should actually have 536,870,912,000 bytes if you count using the binary system. In manufacturing, and thanks to the little assumption made way back when which has really compounded itself as drive capacity grew, a 500 GB hard drive only has 500,000,000,000 bytes of data in it. That equates to 465.66 GB of "computer reported space."

So this has been explained numerous times in the thread, but I think the link up above really explains it much better. It also explains how flash drives report their size using the actual binary system of counting the bytes available, so if you pick up an 8MB USB flash drive, it will actually have 8MB (binary counted) worth of space available. Of course, the formatting of the drive by any system will reduce the size available by a margin, as well as whatever the OS decides it wants to stash away for itself.

It's also a great example of how short-sighted we (human beings) can be. I think if the storage device manufacturers knew all of the confusion they'd be causing when they decided that "24 KB not being present isn't a big deal", things may have been done differently.
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Old 06-24-2011, 07:04 AM
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I remember opening up the ps3 on xmas 06 and reading about being able to change the hdd, and wondering how I would ever fill up a 60gb drive. lol

I used to be bothered by the loss of data space to. But here it is 4 years later and my 250gb hdd still has 100gb of free space. If it ever does become an issue, I can double it for $50.

Although this thread did remind me that I haven't backed up my ps3 recently.
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Old 06-24-2011, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jdurg View Post

...The manufacturers figured that nobody would really notice a shortage of 24 bytes).
...as drive capacity grew, a 500 GB hard drive only has 500,000,000,000 bytes of data in it. That equates to 465.66 GB of "computer reported space."
...

In a way, Sony is doing the same thing with PS3 on the OS reserved space. When PS3 was launched with 20-60GB of hard drive, fewer noticed the missing space reserved by the OS. But now, PS3 ships up to 320GB or gamers put the largest hard drive in PS3 and when additional 52GB is missing from the 500GB, it becomes very noticeable. On PS3, only 413GB is usable which makes like almost like a 400GB hard drive right off after you installed a brand new 500GB hard drive. I like to see how gamers react when Sony starts to ship a "500GB PS3 model".
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Old 06-24-2011, 10:32 AM
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Although this thread did remind me that I haven't backed up my ps3 recently.

There are more complications coming to restore a full hard drive backup on PS3. Range from 100% restore to failure to restore part way because of certain backup data that aren't allowed to restore and simply caused the entire restore to fail. And, Sony will not tell you what specific data that are not allowed to restore. Solution? Delete almost everything off your PS3 hard drive first especially the Game Data before backup if you want a higher chance of successful restore. But that defeat the purpose of backup to begin with. Also, you cannot test if your backup is good because it requires deleting everything on the target drive first. If you try to restore to a different hard drive, all the games/DLC on the original drive will become invalidated. Sony doesn't seem to understand the meaning of hard drive backup.
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