View Poll Results: Battle of the shrimp subs! Dayton SUB-800 or Martin Logan Dynamo 300???
Dayton SUB-800 13 40.63%
Martin Logan Dynamo 300 19 59.38%
Voters: 32. You may not vote on this poll

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post #1 of 63 Old 06-26-2013, 09:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Help me decide which sub to buy for my PC. The sub will be for 'near-field' listening for video games, movies AND music! So, I want a sub that has decent impact, tightness with only slight 'bloat' in the deepest frequencies being acceptable. "Snappy"/controlled bass would be better than loose/farty bass. Gun shots in games need 'snap' and explosions need 'punch', not mush bass. Please vote on which sub can more likely deliver this criteria in a near-field listening environment.

Indecisive? Let the forum decide.
Thank you. Now pick me a winner!

The Dayton 8" looks like the best candidate so far:
http://parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=300-627

The Martin Logan Dynamo 300 is on sale for 129$ on amazon.com: http://amazon.com/MartinLogan-Dynamo-300-Theater-Subwoofer/dp/B004LRPXAU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1372183200&sr=8-1&keywords=martin+logan+dynamo+300
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post #2 of 63 Old 06-26-2013, 09:29 AM
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Can you post two links in your question/post.

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post #3 of 63 Old 06-26-2013, 10:43 AM

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Due to depth of extension. go with the Martin Logan,

But if you cared, you'd go with the Dayton, SUB-1200 which, for the same price, goes deeper, comes with a 12" driver and fifty percent more amplification which equals more output.

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post #4 of 63 Old 06-26-2013, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Due to depth of extension. go with the Martin Logan,

But if you cared, you'd go with the Dayton, SUB-1200 which, for the same price, goes deeper, comes with a 12" driver and fifty percent more amplification which equals more output.

-

+1 Thankyou for the links, I'm lazy smile.gif

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post #5 of 63 Old 06-26-2013, 11:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Due to depth of extension. go with the Martin Logan,

But if you cared, you'd go with the Dayton, SUB-1200 which, for the same price, goes deeper, comes with a 12" driver and fifty percent more amplification which equals more output.

-

Sorry but specific size requirements on this one. The sub must fit in a small location, so it's physical dimensions must be small. So, it's budget mini sub vs budget mini sub.
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post #6 of 63 Old 06-26-2013, 11:27 AM

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Originally Posted by Timothy91 View Post

Sorry but specific size requirements on this one. The sub must fit in a small location, so it's physical dimensions must be small. So, it's budget mini sub vs budget mini sub.

What are your size constraints?

Personally, your choices in subwoofer based sound reproduction is terrible and in my opinion, you're not going be happy with either of your stated choices. Just saying, based on manufacture provided specifications, your, due to size constraints demands of making a subwoofer fit into a specific location, guarantees fail as the outcome.

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post #7 of 63 Old 06-26-2013, 11:32 AM
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The subs seem comparable. I'd get the Dayton only because:
- it's well-rated; and
- I can't see the 60% more-expensive ML being 60% better.
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post #8 of 63 Old 06-26-2013, 12:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

The subs seem comparable. I'd get the Dayton only because:
- it's well-rated; and
- I can't see the 60% more-expensive ML being 60% better.

Don't forget to vote folks! smile.gif
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post #9 of 63 Old 06-26-2013, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

What are your size constraints?

Personally, your choices in subwoofer based sound reproduction is terrible and in my opinion, you're not going be happy with either of your stated choices. Just saying, based on manufacture provided specifications, your, due to size constraints demands of making a subwoofer fit into a specific location, guarantees fail as the outcome.

-


I believe the size constraints from the original thread are 14" x 14" x 14".
The near-field purpose of the sub is clearly stated by the op in the first post of the thread, and no expectations other than decent sound quality have been given.
You can't know what someone will or will not be happy with before they have stated everything they are looking for wink.gif
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post #10 of 63 Old 06-26-2013, 03:21 PM

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Originally Posted by Mik James View Post

You can't know what someone will or will not be happy with before they have stated everything they are looking for wink.gif

Based on the two choices listed, of course one can and allow me to quote myself: "...and in my opinion, you're not going be happy with either of your stated choices."

And I stand by that "opinion." Allow me to offer an alternative; I'm not the best for offering opinions on PC based subwoofer systems.

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post #11 of 63 Old 06-26-2013, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 
But if you cared ...
It appears that the OP has size/placement and budgetary constraints, and that he's trying to find something that will work within those constraints. How does that equate to him "not caring"? confused.gif
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post #12 of 63 Old 06-26-2013, 05:27 PM

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It's not difficult. Pick what's important; sound quality or size. If sound quality is important, size compromises will be made. If size is important, sound quality compromises will be made. What a person chooses to do, represents what they care about.

(my apologies as you found my choice of words offensive)

When one asks for advice, it's understood that by asking for advice, responses are not always be what one wants to read but if one is being genuine regarding their request for advice, they'll appreciate the brevity of the advised recommendation.

Personally, I don't think the OP will be happy with either of their posted choices and in my opinion, the OP should be looking to alternative choices that fit within the constraints of their budget which, include choices that are larger than the two choices presented in the poll.

If the OP insists the two choices are their only two choices, then they'll have to live with the outcome of the restrictions they personally laid out. Down the road, I don't expect them to be happy and expect them to wish they had made alternative choices. My bet, if they stick with their posted choices, after getting the subwoofer system up and running, they'll better understand my recommendation and due to dissatisfaction, will upgrade their choice where such a restricted size is not a consideration.

(I should have listened to that bee dude)

Nothing wrong with giving advice one does not ask for. If the OP finds the pointed out comment offensive, my apologies to him and anybody else who took offense to my choice of words but personally, in my defense, I find that someone who chooses size over sound quality, cares about size and not sound quality.

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post #13 of 63 Old 06-26-2013, 06:49 PM

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Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

...while meeting his size/placement and budgetary constraints.

And we both know that due to size and budget, he's going be disappointed. A person is what they do, not what they say and when one says they care about quality and then in pretty much the same breath, kills any chance of acquiring said quality, then in truth, they don't care about quality. In this case, pushing me on this issue isn't going change the brevity of my opinion.

The choices the OP has are, up the budget, up the size, do both or do without sound quality. If the OP cares and size is a paramount issue, he'll do his best to increase his budget considerably and acquire what he wants such as a SVS, SB-1000 where he would have both; size and quality. Caring comes with expectations as one can't say they care and then turn around, shoot themselves in the foot and repeat, I care. It's like you're trying to slam me against the wall, twisting my arm up in the process, all the while saying: "Say he can have what he wants" and you'll back off.

Okay, uncle, he can have what he wants. But my posting this is a lie and we both know it.

His choices are, boot sound quality issues and go with size for the price or for the price, boot size issues and go with higher sound quality (which is what he says he wants) or, he boots price and goes with sound quality and size. What the OP chooses to do will represent what they care about.

I'll let you have the last word on the issue as it gets circular from here. smile.gif

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post #14 of 63 Old 06-26-2013, 07:10 PM
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I'll let you have the last word on the issue as it gets circular from here. smile.gif





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post #15 of 63 Old 06-26-2013, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

It appears that the OP has size/placement and budgetary constraints, and that he's trying to find something that will work within those constraints. How does that equate to him "not caring"? confused.gif

We never stick to the original budget. Size always goes by the wayside and if the OP wants sealed we talk him into ported.., but then if the OP desires ported, we talk him into sealed! You should know that by now. smile.gif

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post #16 of 63 Old 06-26-2013, 08:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Based on the two choices listed, of course one can and allow me to quote myself: "...and in my opinion, you're not going be happy with either of your stated choices."

And I stand by that "opinion." Allow me to offer an alternative; I'm not the best for offering opinions on PC based subwoofer systems.

-

You do understand this is for 'near-field' listening, right? From my experience, you don't need a 12-inch sub in order to have 25Hz range response 'near-field' (I'm literally going to be sitting right next to it). I don't require any lower than that. An 8" sub with a decent design should be sufficient to deliver generous, accurate and deep near-field bass provided that it's not a poor driver in the design. Also, I will be able to run an auto-calibration on the system which should flatten out response issues. So, let's take this from the top and not get all silly here.
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post #17 of 63 Old 06-26-2013, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

And we both know that due to size and budget, he's going be disappointed. A person is what they do, not what they say and when one says they care about quality and then in pretty much the same breath, kills any chance of acquiring said quality, then in truth, they don't care about quality. In this case, pushing me on this issue isn't going change the brevity of my opinion.

The choices the OP has are, up the budget, up the size, do both or do without sound quality. If the OP cares and size is a paramount issue, he'll do his best to increase his budget considerably and acquire what he wants such as a SVS, SB-1000 where he would have both; size and quality. Caring comes with expectations as one can't say they care and then turn around, shoot themselves in the foot and repeat, I care. It's like you're trying to slam me against the wall, twisting my arm up in the process, all the while saying: "Say he can have what he wants" and you'll back off.

Okay, uncle, he can have what he wants. But my posting this is a lie and we both know it.

His choices are, boot sound quality issues and go with size for the price or for the price, boot size issues and go with higher sound quality (which is what he says he wants) or, he boots price and goes with sound quality and size. What the OP chooses to do will represent what they care about.

I'll let you have the last word on the issue as it gets circular from here. smile.gif

-

Well, it sure is a good thing we live in a perfect world of absolutes, where sound quality is completely defined by extension and output and every situation absolutely requires 20hz at 120db. If we didn't your opinion might not be very valid biggrin.gif
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post #18 of 63 Old 06-26-2013, 08:20 PM
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You do understand this is for 'near-field' listening, right? From my experience, you don't need a 12-inch sub in order to have 25Hz range response 'near-field'. I don't require any lower than that. An 8" sub with a decent design should be sufficient to deliver generous, accurate and deep near-field bass provided that it's not a poor driver in the design. Also, I will be able to run an auto-calibration on the system which should flatten out response issues. So, let's take this from the top and not get all silly here.

Maybe a little optimistic, I get some good tactile feel from the 8's in my Psb 500's near-field, but more around the 35hz range and they plummet below 30.
The Dayton is likely a good 40hz performer and the Martin Logan is probably a good 35hz performer. There may be a couple of options closer to the 300$ budget in your other thread, but it's difficult to find a compact sub with a low tune below 300$.
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post #19 of 63 Old 06-26-2013, 08:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

The choices the OP has are, up the budget, up the size, do both or do without sound quality. If the OP cares and size is a paramount issue, he'll do his best to increase his budget considerably and acquire what he wants such as a SVS, SB-1000 where he would have both; size and quality. Caring comes with expectations as one can't say they care and then turn around, shoot themselves in the foot and repeat, I care. It's like you're trying to slam me against the wall, twisting my arm up in the process, all the while saying: "Say he can have what he wants" and you'll back off.

Trying to tempt me with products beyond my budget? A 12-inch sub seems like overkill considering I won't be using all the output it's capable of while I'm sitting right next to it. Therefore, there will be about 80% of it's capability left unused. With a smaller sub, I will use a bit more of the output it's capable of, but still coming well short of it's total SPL output capabilities. So, convince me why it's necessary to buy a sub with so much more headroom that won't be utilized?
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post #20 of 63 Old 06-26-2013, 08:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mik James View Post

Maybe a little optimistic, I get some good tactile feel from the 8's in my Psb 500's near-field, but more around the 35hz range and they plummet below 30.
The Dayton is likely a good 40hz performer and the Martin Logan is probably a good 35hz performer. There may be a couple of options closer to the 300$ budget in your other thread, but it's difficult to find a compact sub with a low tune below 300$.

Remember that as you get closer to speakers, the efficiency & output increase dramatically. It's why you can stick earbud headphones in your ear canal and get 20Hz response. Because the closer to your ear canal the driver is, the LOUDER it is at ALL frequencies, thereby increasing the headroom of the driver(s). When sitting literally right next to a subwoofer, you WILL have the ability to tune the sub to playback audible frequencies that you would not hear from a distance. It becomes a matter of proper tuning at the listening position. This is also why you can utilize very small drivers and achieve THX certification for multi-media desk speakers. The proximity of the listener to the speakers changes everything about the capabilities of the reproduction.
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post #21 of 63 Old 06-26-2013, 08:42 PM

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Originally Posted by Timothy91 View Post

Remember that as you get closer to speakers, the efficiency & output increase dramatically. It's why you can stick earbud headphones in your ear canal and get 20Hz response. .
Earbuds, and all phones, give low bass response due to cabin gain. Proximity does not enter the equation.
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When sitting literally right next to a subwoofer, you WILL have the ability to tune the sub to playback audible frequencies that you would not hear from a distance.
There is no difference in the response based on distance. There is a difference based on the size of the room, also attributable to cabin gain. If you have a large room it takes a large sub to pressurize it, no matter how close you have it placed to the listening position.
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The proximity of the listener to the speakers changes everything about the capabilities of the reproduction
The only difference that results from the distance to the listener is the level, which drops by 6dB per doubling of distance in an open space, ie., outdoors. Indoors the drop off is far less, and because of room interactions there can be little to no difference throughout much of the room.
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post #22 of 63 Old 06-26-2013, 09:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Earbuds, and all phones, give low bass response due to cabin gain. Proximity does not enter the equation.
There is no difference in the response based on distance. There is a difference based on the size of the room, also attributable to cabin gain. If you have a large room it takes a large sub to pressurize it, no matter how close you have it placed to the listening position.
The only difference that results from the distance to the listener is the level, which drops by 6dB per doubling of distance in an open space, ie., outdoors. Indoors the drop off is far less, and because of room interactions there can be little to no difference throughout much of the room.

And that bolded sentence which you yourself uttered discounts the rest of your FALSE information neatly. The closer you are, the louder it is. You don't need to "pressurize" a room. That's nonsense. Subs are measured at specific distances because of this very reason and you yourself seem to be able to regurgitate the information, but you clearly failed to grasp that concept as evidenced by your logically opposite statements preceding the correct statement. I will need you to please use logic in your statements.
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post #23 of 63 Old 06-26-2013, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy91 View Post

Remember that as you get closer to speakers, the efficiency & output increase dramatically. It's why you can stick earbud headphones in your ear canal and get 20Hz response. Because the closer to your ear canal the driver is, the LOUDER it is at ALL frequencies, thereby increasing the headroom of the driver(s). When sitting literally right next to a subwoofer, you WILL have the ability to tune the sub to playback audible frequencies that you would not hear from a distance. It becomes a matter of proper tuning at the listening position. This is also why you can utilize very small drivers and achieve THX certification for multi-media desk speakers. The proximity of the listener to the speakers changes everything about the capabilities of the reproduction.

Ported subs are tuned at specific frequencies and output drops off rapidly below that. And if it uses a particularly aggressive limiter below that tuning (to avoid driver over excursion) you would have a very tough time finding enough eq to bring those cut off frequencies back up.
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post #24 of 63 Old 06-26-2013, 09:15 PM
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And that bolded sentence which you yourself uttered discounts the rest of your FALSE information neatly. The closer you are, the louder it is. You don't need to "pressurize" a room. That's nonsense. Subs are measured at specific distances because of this very reason and you yourself seem to be able to regurgitate the information, but you clearly failed to grasp that concept as evidenced by your logically opposite statements preceding the correct statement. I will need you to please use logic in your statements.

Uh oh, this just got REAL eek.gifbiggrin.gif
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post #25 of 63 Old 06-26-2013, 09:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Ported subs are tuned at specific frequencies and output drops off rapidly below that.

This is true, but considering the proximity is so close, the difference might be EQ'able. Although, it would depend on just how steep the slope of the drop is. It also doesn't help that the driver is small because it will have to move even more to make up the ground.
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And if it uses a particularly aggressive limiter below that tuning (to avoid driver over excursion) you would have a very tough time finding enough eq to bring those cut off frequencies back up.

I'm not sure if subs this cheap are employing 'limiters' in their design. Most likely, I would be dealing with the natural drop under the port tuning. The real question becomes now, what is the port tuned at and how steep is the drop?

Perhaps you are right on this. Maybe a sealed sub would be a better choice in this instance. It would be good to know what the port tunings are before passing judgement. The Martin Logan by my 'guess', based on frequency response specs might have the lower port tuning and the better chance to hit a handful of Hz lower with EQ'ing. Though an 8-inch driver makes that a tough task. But the near-field proximity might make up for it.
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post #26 of 63 Old 06-26-2013, 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Timothy91 View Post

This is true, but considering the proximity is so close, the difference might be EQ'able. Although, it would depend on just how steep the slope of the drop is. It also doesn't help that the driver is small because it will have to move even more to make up the ground.
I'm not sure if subs this cheap are employing 'limiters' in their design. Most likely, I would be dealing with the natural drop under the port tuning. The real question becomes now, what is the port tuned at and how steep is the drop?

Perhaps you are right on this. Maybe a sealed sub would be a better choice in this instance. It would be good to know what the port tunings are before passing judgement.

Have fun tracking down a sealed sub within budget. A sealed sub will have less output overall and may or may not be eq'able to play as low as the ported subs at any appreciable volume.

This is where that room gain mentioned above can help you out, what size is the room?
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post #27 of 63 Old 06-26-2013, 09:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Have fun tracking down a sealed sub within budget. A sealed sub will have less output overall and may or may not be eq'able to play as low as the ported subs at any appreciable volume.

This is where that room gain mentioned above can help you out, what size is the room?

10x12 office/bedroom with standard 8-feet ceiling. The sub will be a foot from a wall and about 3-feet from a corner (corner desk). I think these small subs should prove worthy of good showing in this planned setup. I want something nice, but want to build to the point of not wasting too much headroom. Overkill is silly and although that SVS SB-1000 is quite tempting, it seems to be overkill in this build. The Infinity Entra Point Fives I will use are excellent near-field choices and I really like the clean, low distortion sound they give up close. I want the sub to compliment them and give a snappy/pleasant sound for music and kick just a bit on movie/video-game soundtracks. I previously had a Logitech Z-560 multi-media speaker system and the subwoofer in that setup was doing a good job. I honestly don't need this sub to do much differently. The mid/highs of the Infinity Entras rule all over those previous Logitech multi-media satellites.
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post #28 of 63 Old 06-26-2013, 09:49 PM
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Not bad at all. A good sealed sub would benefit from some decent room gain boosting lower frequencies up to a certian point. That point is determined by the size of the room. That's why you can get far below 20hz in vehicles without the drivers doing extra work.

All of this was mentioned by Bill a couple posts back though, who I might add has designed and built quite a few subwoofers.
I find it's better to not insult people blatantly, on the off chance they are entirely correct wink.gif
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post #29 of 63 Old 06-26-2013, 10:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mik James View Post

Not bad at all. A good sealed sub would benefit from some decent room gain boosting lower frequencies up to a certian point. That point is determined by the size of the room. That's why you can get far below 20hz in vehicles without the drivers doing extra work.

All of this was mentioned by Bill a couple posts back though, who I might add has designed and built quite a few subwoofers.
I find it's better to not insult people blatantly, on the off chance they are entirely correct wink.gif

Not all of his statement was incorrect. The bolded part is correct but the first part is horsepucky from what I understand about sound reproduction. Right. I know a bit about bass myself having dual sealed 12" RE SE's with a 1,200-watt @ 1% amp @1-ohm in my car. I don't even need to use a fraction of the bass output in that system. I built it to have tons of headroom and boy, it's got it in spades...
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post #30 of 63 Old 06-26-2013, 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Timothy91 View Post

And that bolded sentence which you yourself uttered discounts the rest of your FALSE information neatly. The closer you are, the louder it is. You don't need to "pressurize" a room. That's nonsense. Subs are measured at specific distances because of this very reason and you yourself seem to be able to regurgitate the information, but you clearly failed to grasp that concept as evidenced by your logically opposite statements preceding the correct statement. I will need you to please use logic in your statements.

Its not false information...if you had measuring gear and took the time to actually test things, you would know. My polk rti-a7' will hit the same spl level at 15ft away as it does at 3ft....and thats mostly due to room acoustics.
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