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post #1 of 23 Old 10-03-2014, 06:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Blu-Ray blank disc recommendations

well, the optical drive in my desktop went south yesterday, and figure i'll finally upgrade to a blu-ray recorder.

What brand & flavor blu-ray blank disc do you guys recommend? - i figured it might be smart to confirm the blu-ray writer would work with the discs everyone recommends

tks in advance

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post #2 of 23 Old 10-03-2014, 10:27 AM
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We have talked about BD-R quite a bit in this thread. Scan the last hundred posts or so. I usually write about BD-R in there.

First thing to note is that there are two flavors of BD-R. Real, original BD-R with a solid state recording layer and the "stay-away-from" BD-R LTH which was introduced as a cheap BD-R alternative when BD-R prices were still very high. BD-R LTH uses a dye-based recording layer with all the inherent problems and can be made in DVD-R making equipment and so were initially cheaper. The chinese crashed the market for BD-R LTH early -- thankfully -- when they rapidly decreased the cost of making BD-R. As a result, not a lot of equipment supports BD-R LTH and so incompatibility abounds. Only Verbatim and Taiyo-Yuden became established suppliers of BD-R LTH and still sell them today -- the chinese never bothered. Everybody else sells BD-R but I point it out so you are aware to avoid LTH if you go shopping for those two brands.

I've been burning BD-R for almost 4 yr now and it has been incredibly reliable. I have been using Optical Quantum disks. Primarily the 4X OQBDR04LT and more recently the 6X OQBDR06LT. Optical Quantum is not exactly a household name (the media-ID = Philips) but the nature of the solid state BD-R recording layer makes it more stable in use and across manufacturers (especially chinese manufacturers). I've burned a couple hundred Optical Quantum disks and had only one disk fail a verify -- and that was my fault for trying to burn a 4X rated disk at 6X. A couple hundred disks over 4 yr may not seem like a lot, but remember 1xBD-R = 5xDVD-R in terms of storage space -- even burning HDTV captures I can fit at least 5x1hr episodes without commercials on a BD-R. Optical Quantum 4X BD-R cost a little more than $0.40/disk (that's like paying $0.08/DVD-R ) and have a 4.5 star rating in Amazon (if you pay attention to those sorts of things). I guess that is primarily due to the nature and stability of the solid state layer and because, unlike with DVD-R, the chinese started making BD-R blanks from the very beginning and quickly ironed out their production bugs and costs which made reliable media and crashed the BD-R LTH market before it even got started.

If you perceive there is security in a name-brand BD-R, there is always Verbatim BD-R. Their 6X BD-R are highly rated (4.5 star) and cost just under $1/disk. Taiyo-Yuden only sells BD-R LTH so they are out of the picture.

BD-R DL is still too expensive -- around $2.50/disk -- to consider except for special circumstances. The cost differential between BD-R and BD-R DL will probably always remain much higher than 2X like it traditionally has for DVD-R vs. DVD DL.

P.S. - I think the LG BD burners are the best. They are pretty much the only kind I use any more.
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- kelson h

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post #3 of 23 Old 10-03-2014, 04:51 PM - Thread Starter
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thanks for the detailed response and especially the Optical Quantum recommendation - i'll review that thread in a few minutes

i'd recalled to stay away from BD-R LTH disks, but the different BD burner mfgrs seem to differ in indicating the types of disks their drive is compatible with - kept seeing reference to BD-RE disks (in addition to BD-R) but didn't see any offered anywhere

i've narrowed it down to an LG 12.7mm drive and a panasonic - they aren't priced but a few bucks apart, but it's nice to have a known reference recommend one of them -

again tks for the response

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post #4 of 23 Old 10-03-2014, 11:08 PM
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BD-RE are 25GB re-writable disks.
I would recommend the LG WH14NS40 or the WH16NS40. They are nearly the same drive selling for about $60 with the following differences:
The 14NS is a 14X BD-R burner that plays 3D disks; the 16NS is a 16X burner that does not play 3D disks. All other read/write specs are the same. Most BD-R sold are 6X or 4X so the high burner speeds are irrelevant.

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post #5 of 23 Old 10-04-2014, 07:59 AM - Thread Starter
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THANKS but my desktop is a SONY VAIO ALL-IN-ONE Slim profile - uses a 12.7mm laptop optical drive.

this is the LG burner i had focus'd on, but when i went back last night, found it was sold out - now have to see who else is carrying it

I looked at external units as they'd be more practical for when i upgrade this computer (it's now 5.5 years old) but would prefer to not add clutter to my desk - but even when i do upgrade the computer, there are USB 3.0 enclosures for the 12.7mm drive available in low $20 range. The dis-advantage to me, going with that LG is i'd have to use an external enclosure and my computer is limited to USB 2.0.

I kind of like the performance my present Vaio is giving me, after i upgraded to a SSD disk - plus i've modified some by moving the SSD to a "holster" on the back of the computer - my backup harddrive is also a SSD - if when i get hit by a virus, i simply turn off the machine, swap hard drive (god bless EaseUS ToDo free backup software) and restart the computer. Surprisingly, performance on this computer is not slow but i gave it 8GB ram and it's 2.5Ghx dual core processor, so i kind of future proofed it when i first bought it

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post #6 of 23 Old 10-06-2014, 08:32 AM
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Kelson,

1) Do you always "verify" during the burning process. How often does that catch anything, I have never seen verify ever spit anything out in all my years of DVD duplication

2) Is "ImgBurm" the best burning program (it seems to be included with many other editing programs)

I use VideoReDo for my editing out of commercials and MultiAVCHD for my chapter marks, Menu creation, and burning.
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post #7 of 23 Old 10-06-2014, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by billmich View Post
Kelson,

1) Do you always "verify" during the burning process. How often does that catch anything, I have never seen verify ever spit anything out in all my years of DVD duplication

2) Is "ImgBurm" the best burning program (it seems to be included with many other editing programs)

I use VideoReDo for my editing out of commercials and MultiAVCHD for my chapter marks, Menu creation, and burning.
I use ImgBurn (yes, it is the best), always do a verify cycle and have it cycle the disk tray before the verify. ImgBurn does a bit for bit comparison of the burn to the source and stops if it finds a mis-comparison. How often? In my case with BD-R, one time. That is all the bad burns I have had and it was my fault.

Word of caution about ImgBurn. Occasionally, but rare, a burner drive may not re-seat the disk perfectly after a tray cycle and thus yield verify errors -- old burners are always suspect. If you do a direct burn from files/folders to disk and get verify errors, you cannot reseat the disk and restart the verify process to see if it was a seating problem or a real verify fail due to burn errors. For that reason when I am ready to burn a file set to BD-R I use ImgBurn to first create an .ISO image file then burn the .ISO file to the BD-R. If there is a verify error, I can reseat the disk and restart the verify since it is comparing to an ISO file. I learned this lesson during my DVD burning days where I got caught on a few occasions and had to toss the disk. After I started using ISO files so I could restart the verify I discovered most of the verify errors were due to bad disk seating after the tray cycle. At that realization I replaced the DVD burner and now typically replace my burners every 3 years -- just because.

I record HDTV with TiVo's and transfer the captures to a server. I also use VRD to edit commercials and save the captures as native BluRay .m2ts files -- I leave the coding as MPEG-2. In the beginning, for a short while, I used MultiAVCHD to author a couple BD and make pretty menus etc. It does an incredible job for a free application but it is not supported (last update, 2012) and has a number of issues running under Win-7 and as you know a very steep learning cure. But if you want nice menus with motion backgrounds and motion chapter icons and background sound, etc. it is hard to beat for the price as long as you are willing to invest the time.

I stopped using MultiAVCHD when I quickly discovered you can easily author a BD disk with ImgBurn. If you tell ImgBurn to burn a bunch of .m2ts files to BD-R it asks you if your want to author a BD disk. You say yes and it creates the BD folder structure and puts the files in the right spot. When you play the disk on a BD Player it gives you a simple list menu of all the filename.m2ts on the disk. Since each .m2ts file is a title you just select the one you want and play it. I just give each one an appropriate filename with series title - season/episode number - episode title. i.e.

Grimm 0301 - The Ungrateful Dead.m2ts

They get sorted alphabetically and so appear in ascending episode order in the list menu. It doesn't get any simpler than that to both author the BD-R and play it. I love simple and fast list menus.

- kelson h

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post #8 of 23 Old 10-06-2014, 02:36 PM
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If you no longer use MultiAVCHD, where else can I go to create menu's (Free preferable)...

why is it so important to do a tray cycle?
Why is that program no longer supported, I think it's awesome, but I hate to think that a virus will destroy it leaving me with no other options

I never burn more than 1 title at a time (1 game = 1 title), how can I use ImgBurn to create a top menu?..i poked around and never could find anything, before using MultiAVCHD, I was using TsmuxeR, it is more important to me to have chapter marks than a top menu, and IMGburn doent provide chapter marks, and TSMuxer didn't seem to support top menu

I too like MPEG 2 m2ts files, it seems to take the least amount of time muxing in VRD.

I also have a colossus in case I need to offload something externally (like my DVR)

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post #9 of 23 Old 10-06-2014, 04:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Kelson - just wanted to say thanks for responding to a question i suspect you've seen posted more than a few times.

i followed up with a good deal more research on the LG burners, don't know why i'd never given them much thought, but was actually surprised by the level of positive reviews across a number of sites from reviewers, with more than a couple reviewers coincidentially indicating they'd tried and returned the very panasonic unit i was also looking at.

I went with a 12.7mm LG BT30N for the reasons stated plus the fact running thru a SATA connection would be faster than my USB 2.0 connection. One spec on the LG that i hadn't considered, the LG is free of any "riplock" - it'll read BD-ROMs at 6X, both SL or DL discs, so copying will be faster. Other mfgrs seem to limit BD-Rom read speed to 2X.

I did go with OQ, in fact i ordered four 50 disc spindles of the OQ discs

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post #10 of 23 Old 10-06-2014, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billmich View Post
If you no longer use MultiAVCHD, where else can I go to create menu's (Free preferable)...

why is it so important to do a tray cycle?
Why is that program no longer supported, I think it's awesome, but I hate to think that a virus will destroy it leaving me with no other options
If you want menus other than a simple title list then MultiAVCHD is it. Other BD authoring programs get expensive.

Tray cycle - I don't know that it is important or not. People recommend doing it so I just do it.

Only the author can say why he isn't supporting his free program -- a lot of these folks get bored with not making any money.

Quote:
I never burn more than 1 title at a time (1 game = 1 title), how can I use ImgBurn to create a top menu?..i poked around and never could find anything, before using MultiAVCHD, I was using TsmuxeR, it is more important to me to have chapter marks than a top menu, and IMGburn doent provide chapter marks, and TSMuxer didn't seem to support top menu
ImgBurn is the fastest and simplest way I know to author a BD disk from a set of .m2ts files. It's top menu is a file list. Chapter marks are not supported because those are not contained in the .m2ts file but in a playlist file which ImgBurn doesn't generate. TSMuxer will generate a BD folder structure with a playlist file that sets chapter marks at whatever interval you choose. That folder structure does not have a menu and is suitable for a single title which will mount and play as soon as the disk is inserted. If it is a single title (game) on the disk, why do you need a top menu?

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post #11 of 23 Old 10-06-2014, 06:19 PM
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in your scenario i can have 1 but not BOTH when it comes to chapters/top menu
chapters are more important to me, easily FF to a spot in the game, or chapter mark a spectuacular play

I like a top menu that will display the score the date and the teams, I like to create a thumbnail too

thank you for the detailed answers to my questions
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post #12 of 23 Old 10-06-2014, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billmich View Post
in your scenario i can have 1 but not BOTH when it comes to chapters/top menu
chapters are more important to me, easily FF to a spot in the game, or chapter mark a spectuacular play

I like a top menu that will display the score the date and the teams, I like to create a thumbnail too

thank you for the detailed answers to my questions
That is pretty much the case.

So for you, by all means continue to use MultiAVCHD. Learning to use it is half the battle. It was a great program but since I don't need more than a file list and I don't need chapter points I went the easy route.

There is yet another . . .
VRD will write to MKV format. MKV will store chapter points in the container, unlike .m2ts. It can be easily burned to BD-R as a data disk by ImgBurn. MKV is ubiquitous so most BluRay players will read a data disk full of MKV files and put up a simple list menu of the filenames just like it does for .m2ts -- you select and play. As far as a top menu with teams-date-score, you just make that the filename and you have it all there. I'm actually thinking of switching from .m2ts to MKV for HDTV captures. But then if you really like the thumbnail, it's MultiAVCHD.

My propose was to answer you questions and give other options. Bottom line is there are lots of ways to burn HDTV toBD-R.

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post #13 of 23 Old 10-06-2014, 07:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post
That is pretty much the case.

So for you, by all means continue to use MultiAVCHD. Learning to use it is half the battle. It was a great program but since I don't need more than a file list and I don't need chapter points I went the easy route.

There is yet another . . .
VRD will write to MKV format. MKV will store chapter points in the container, unlike .m2ts. It can be easily burned to BD-R as a data disk by ImgBurn. MKV is ubiquitous so most BluRay players will read a data disk full of MKV files and put up a simple list menu of the filenames just like it does for .m2ts -- you select and play. As far as a top menu with teams-date-score, you just make that the filename and you have it all there. I'm actually thinking of switching from .m2ts to MKV for HDTV captures. But then if you really like the thumbnail, it's MultiAVCHD.

My propose was to answer you questions and give other options. Bottom line is there are lots of ways to burn HDTV toBD-R.
already tried the MKV files, they wont play in PS3's

dealbreaker as far as compatibility goes
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post #14 of 23 Old 10-07-2014, 09:41 AM
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already tried the MKV files, they wont play in PS3's

dealbreaker as far as compatibility goes
LOL, I keep striking out.

OK, MultiAVCHD it is -- there is no other choice for you. It really is a good program and I enjoyed using it once I got past the learning curve. I quickly realized I needed to buy a couple BD-RE so I could proof out my authoring project before committing to BD-R. If people want to author BD-R with full menus and chapter icons etc. I think it's the way to go. I've hesitated recommending it because of the issues I've noted: lack of support, problems running under Win-7 and that very steep learning curve.

In my case, I like the ImgBurn file method I use because of simplicity and because my BD-R are not really played but used as backup for the titles that are all stored on my servers and streamed. The files on my servers are exactly the same as what I burn to BD-R so if I ever need to reload them it is a simple copy from the BD-R. The fact that they can be played in a BD Player is an added bonus.

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post #15 of 23 Old 10-07-2014, 10:57 AM
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I have Win-7 and notice that sometimes I cant open up my files to get to the chapter setting part.

Why wouldn't VRD allow burning to BD like they do for DVD? I don't get it

thank you so much for your knowledge sharing
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post #16 of 23 Old 10-07-2014, 12:08 PM
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Why wouldn't VRD allow burning to BD like they do for DVD? I don't get it
I completely agree with you on this. Basic BD authoring has been a highly requested feature. The answer is always sometime in the future. While VRD would be very useful for people using DVD recorders -- when I was using a Panasonic DVDR I always edited/authored on my PC and not the deck -- people using VRD are largely editing HDTV captures -- TiVo, WMC, .TS files from other DVR Apps, etc. Who is going to down-convert this in VRD and burn to DVD-R?

One of the commercial offerings on the low end is DVD Fab BluRay Creator ($60). I downloaded the trial and it was a complete disaster. I don't know what their target is but I would classify it as unusable for authoring HDTV captures to BD. No matter what I did it insisted on re-coding every file I fed it as H.264. Aside from taking forever to do a rendering, the quality of the re-coding was 1-pass god-awful and I couldn't see to change the parameters to come even close to something I would want to watch. Also the menu creation module was pretty lame.

One of the really better ones is TMPGEnc-Authoring-Works but it's not free -- $100

I used used a hacked version of TMPGEnc in my early DVD editing days before switching to VRD for HDTV. I'm not sure TMPGEnc handles .tivo file editing like VRD does and that is all-important for me. If I were to get into serious BD creation and do it a lot, I would probably spend the coin and get TMPGEnc again for the authoring capabilities but continue to use VRD for all the editing.

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post #17 of 23 Old 10-07-2014, 12:30 PM
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I am using a home run prime for the majority of my captures, with a colossus as a backup as well. It really is a shame that for as good as VRD is, it doesn't author Blu-ray, I mean it can render to a zillion formats and it edits quite nicely,

Can you give me a quick primer on what this 1-pass means as opposed to 2-pass and other options.

There really is no 1-stop place for a NOOB to pick up all this information, I have been acquiring it piecemeal.

Thank you again
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post #18 of 23 Old 10-07-2014, 01:28 PM
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I'm OTA. I have an HDHR2 that I used to use with WMC for overflow recording before I got my second TiVo. Now I just use the HDHR2 to put up a Live-TV window on my main workstation or mobile PC devices. It lets the wife watch her NASCAR race on the laptop while we watch the football game on the big screen.

1-pass re-coding is like what you get with a DVD recorder. It pretty much takes in the input file and re-codes on the fly using a set of average parameters with no real optimizations and close to constant bitrate. Some of the better encoders may take in bigger chunks of video and optimize a little -- handbrake is supposed to be pretty good in that regard but you really have to know what you are doing to tweak the parameters -- I don't. A 2-pass encode does a first pass through the file and analyzes the video for bitrate needs, transitions etc. Then it uses that information in the second pass to do the re-code with optimized bitrate dynamic range -- scenes that need less bitrate to render are given less bitrate and the excess bitrate is applied to scenes that need more to render properly.

I've played with the H.264 encoder in VRD using the default 70% MPEG-2 --> AVC profile and the 1-pass encodes are fast and terrible looking quality. The 2-pass are much better but still have some issues of black crush and blocking in very dark scenes. Personally I prefer to leave the encodings as MPEG-2, I don't find it worth the time to re-encode to fit maybe one more episode on the disk when the dark-scene quality seems to suffer.

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post #19 of 23 Old 10-31-2014, 04:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post
We have talked about BD-R quite a bit in this thread. Scan the last hundred posts or so. I usually write about BD-R in there.

First thing to note is that there are two flavors of BD-R. Real, original BD-R with a solid state recording layer and the "stay-away-from" BD-R LTH which was introduced as a cheap BD-R alternative when BD-R prices were still very high. BD-R LTH uses a dye-based recording layer with all the inherent problems and can be made in DVD-R making equipment and so were initially cheaper. The chinese crashed the market for BD-R LTH early -- thankfully -- when they rapidly decreased the cost of making BD-R. As a result, not a lot of equipment supports BD-R LTH and so incompatibility abounds. Only Verbatim and Taiyo-Yuden became established suppliers of BD-R LTH and still sell them today -- the chinese never bothered. Everybody else sells BD-R but I point it out so you are aware to avoid LTH if you go shopping for those two brands.

I've been burning BD-R for almost 4 yr now and it has been incredibly reliable. I have been using Optical Quantum disks. Primarily the 4X OQBDR04LT and more recently the 6X OQBDR06LT. Optical Quantum is not exactly a household name (the media-ID = Philips) but the nature of the solid state BD-R recording layer makes it more stable in use and across manufacturers (especially chinese manufacturers). I've burned a couple hundred Optical Quantum disks and had only one disk fail a verify -- and that was my fault for trying to burn a 4X rated disk at 6X. A couple hundred disks over 4 yr may not seem like a lot, but remember 1xBD-R = 5xDVD-R in terms of storage space -- even burning HDTV captures I can fit at least 5x1hr episodes without commercials on a BD-R. Optical Quantum 4X BD-R cost a little more than $0.40/disk (that's like paying $0.08/DVD-R ) and have a 4.5 star rating in Amazon (if you pay attention to those sorts of things). I guess that is primarily due to the nature and stability of the solid state layer and because, unlike with DVD-R, the chinese started making BD-R blanks from the very beginning and quickly ironed out their production bugs and costs which made reliable media and crashed the BD-R LTH market before it even got started.

If you perceive there is security in a name-brand BD-R, there is always Verbatim BD-R. Their 6X BD-R are highly rated (4.5 star) and cost just under $1/disk. Taiyo-Yuden only sells BD-R LTH so they are out of the picture.

BD-R DL is still too expensive -- around $2.50/disk -- to consider except for special circumstances. The cost differential between BD-R and BD-R DL will probably always remain much higher than 2X like it traditionally has for DVD-R vs. DVD DL.

P.S. - I think the LG BD burners are the best. They are pretty much the only kind I use any more.


well finally got the Optical Quantum BD-R 6X discs in (they had quoted 4 week delivery when i ordered), and tried to burn a blu-ray today using the OQ discs and 3 out of the first 3 would not verify. First one was at 6X, then one at 4X and then the last one at 2X (using imgburn and burning to UDF format) -

My burner is a LG BT30N (12.7MM laptop burner) and it has been a little squirrelly - i noticed when copying DVDs using MakeMKV, it's good for 1-2 60 minute videos (1.5-1.9GB each vid) and then i've got to let it cool off and sometimes it will error out on the 2nd vid and want a "cool down".

But i then tried burning to verbatim 6X BD-R at 4X and it verified on the first attempt

don't know if it's a factor of the current production on OQ discs as these were fresh from china, or what other factors, but until i upgrade my burner to the 5.25" full size LG, i'll be staying with verbatim for the time being

any suggestions for me to try kelson? -

almost forgot, these don't show to be phillips production - below is the data fm DVD Identifier


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post #20 of 23 Old 10-31-2014, 11:59 PM
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I have not burned many 6X disks and have been working mostly off my 4X inventory. I only recently bought the 6X disks when there was an Amazon sale and I got them for the same price as the 4X disks. But of the 6X disks I have burned, I have not had any problems and they all have verified. I burn on an LG WH10LS30 internal drive. The 6X disks don't offer that much of a time savings for the burn because they started out burning at 3.5X and don't hit 6X until half way through the burn -- the average write rate was only 5X. That the 6X started out burning at 3.5X was surprising because the 4X disks start out burning at 4X and stay there the whole burn. I don't understand why the 6X started out burning below 4X. I noticed the Media ID of the 6X were not Philips but I'm not concerned.

I only bought the 6X because of the sale. In the future I would never pay a premium for 6X disks over 4X so I don't see 6X disks holding a place for me in the future unless they stop making them.

As for your situation, it sounds like your laptop burner may not be up to the task. It may verify Verbatim disks but I would still have questions about the quality of the burn with that burner. I generally replace my internal burners every 3 yrs.

- kelson h

The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine


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post #21 of 23 Old 11-01-2014, 06:24 AM - Thread Starter
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forgot to mention, i put the OQ discs in the sony bd player, and first wouldn't play at all, (it had verification issue at the very beginning) and the other two played but i noticed scenes would jump, losing a second or two of the scene. The verbatim disc played beautifully with no hiccups, jumps etc

I may try some of the 4X discs when i get the internal LG ODD

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post #22 of 23 Old 11-02-2014, 09:58 AM - Thread Starter
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I think i've eliminated the "squirrely" factor i referenced earlier re my LG bluray burner - all the "erroring out" that i had assumed were "heat soak" or buildup in the burner, had occurred on it were when i was burning videos ripped by either my panny EH-59 or ripped from a commercial disc using DVDFAB - - i'd stopped using it a week or so ago as i noticed a lot of corruption errors. It was erroring out if i tried to burn two 1.4 - 1.9 GB videos in a row.

This morning i used MakeMKV to rip 3 commercial BD discs, and then burned them to both the OQ discs and the verbatim - of the three that i burnt to OQ discs, none verified but one of the three still played without any errors, stumbling or visual hiccups in the scenes. The verbatims all burnt and verified without issue. I suspect either i've got a bad batch of OQ discs or they've dropped their quality control. And these were 22.1 GB to 32 GB video files. That kind of eliminated my "heat soak" assumption.

Kelson, out of curiousity, did your 6X OQ discs show the same mfgr ID that i posted above? You had mentioned phillips earlier but i think you were referring to the 4X discs.

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post #23 of 23 Old 11-02-2014, 12:10 PM
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Yes, I believe that was the ID.
As far as burning the OC disks, I think your laptop burner is marginal.
If that is the burner you are going to use then you probably want to stick with Verbatim.

- kelson h

The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine

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